Oxford High School, Michigan, school shooting.

[Meadmaker]

You make some good points, but I think this one is a red herring. Obviously a teacher who has a gun and wants to start shooting up a school isn't going to be any more deterred by a "no guns allowed" policy than the students are.

In fact, I don't think we've seen any evidence at all that a "no guns allowed" policy, without a blanket search and detain component, has any deterrent effect on would-be school shooters.

I agree, but what was in my head at the time is that a lot of times murder is an impulsive act, not a deliberate one.

A "no guns allowed" policy will not prevent a pre-meditated murder, but it might prevent a "crime of passion".

 

[plague311]

1. Sometimes the cops don't show up.

Ok, so there's a single instance. Is that the default or a one-off? Should the person I mentioned before assume that the cops aren't going to show up?

2. Because you advise your administrator that you're going to engage, so that they can apprise the cops of the situation when they do show up.

LoL the fact you said this with a straight face is the funniest ******* thing I'll read all day. Again, is "fog of war" just not a thing in your world? What would the "administrator" say?

"Hello, police. We have an active shooter here at xxx school. We need police immediately. Also, Phil is going out there with his gun. He's wearing a light blue turtleneck, khakis and he'll be shooting a 9mm. Could you please make sure your cops don't shoot him?"

Yeah, that should be fine. I can't imagine a way something like that could go wrong. What do you think the cops would say? Think they'd say something along the lines of, "Could you please tell Phil to **** off because we have no idea what's going on and we'd prefer Phil not running around?"

3. Letting the shooter rampage unopposed until the cops arrive seems suboptimal.

You know what else is suboptimal? Giving an entire populace access to devices designed to kill people as quickly as possible with little more oversight than making sure they haven't committed crimes in the past.

4. Not wanting to risk your life to protect the people around you seems cowardly.

How about risking the lives of the other ******* people? What if he thinks someone that's holding a phone has a gun and shoots them? What if he hits people in the crossfire? What if he shoots a plain clothed cop that responded in the area and had their gun drawn?

But yeah, I agree. He should just run out there, dick and gun out, waving it around playing hero. After all, we wouldn't want some sub ******* optimal outcome, would we?

 

[smartcooky]

Ok, so there's a single instance. Is that the default or a one-off? Should the person I mentioned before assume that the cops aren't going to show up?

LoL the fact you said this with a straight face is the funniest ******* thing I'll read all day. Again, is "fog of war" just not a thing in your world? What would the "administrator" say?

"Hello, police. We have an active shooter here at xxx school. We need police immediately. Also, Phil is going out there with his gun. He's wearing a light blue turtleneck, khakis and he'll be shooting a 9mm. Could you please make sure your cops don't shoot him?"

Yeah, that should be fine. I can't imagine a way something like that could go wrong. What do you think the cops would say? Think they'd say something along the lines of, "Could you please tell Phil to **** off because we have no idea what's going on and we'd prefer Phil not running around?"



You know what else is suboptimal? Giving an entire populace access to devices designed to kill people as quickly as possible with little more oversight than making sure they haven't committed crimes in the past.



How about risking the lives of the other ******* people? What if he thinks someone that's holding a phone has a gun and shoots them? What if he hits people in the crossfire? What if he shoots a plain clothed cop that responded in the area and had their gun drawn?

But yeah, I agree. He should just run out there, dick and gun out, waving it around playing hero. After all, we wouldn't want some sub ******* optimal outcome, would we?

Couldn't have said it better. Arming teachers has to be just about the most stupid idea ever... that way lies madness and inevitable tragedy!

 

[theprestige]

Couldn't have said it better. Arming teachers has to be just about the most stupid idea ever... that way lies madness and inevitable tragedy!

Versus letting the shooter rampage from classroom to classroom unopposed for ten-fifteen minutes until the cops show up*.That's all kittens and rainbows, and frankly I'm surprised anybody get upset when it happens.

---
*Or worse yet, the cops are already there, but somehow contrive to not show up anyway.

 

[newyorkguy]

Oxford High School released details about the morning Ethan Crumbley was removed from class by a guidance counselor -- after a teacher saw 'thoughts won’t stop, help me' note -- and his parents were called. His behavior definitely does not seem threatening.

While the school tries to reach them, Ethan remains in the office for an hour-and-a-half as counselors continue to observe and speak with him, Throne says. Ethan expresses concern about missing homework assignments and asks for his science homework, which he works on while waiting. The counselors do not believe he will harm others based on his behavior, demeanor and responses, according to the superintendent.

The parents arrive and are shown the note. The counselors ask Ethan about his potential for self-harm or harming others. They again conclude he is not a risk due to his answers, which are affirmed by the parents. The parents are advised that they are required to get him counseling within 48 hours or the school will contact Children’s Protective Services. They refuse a request to take their son home for the day and leave without him, apparently to return to work, Throne says. Ethan Crumbley is returned to the classroom rather than go “home to an empty house,” which the superintendent says is because he had no prior disciplinary infractions. AP news link

 

[Horhang]

What kind of training do school counselors or guidance counselors receive in the United States. Apparently the qualifications are on a state-by-state basis. A recruiting website notes there is a difference between school counselors and guidance counselors.


Specifically, in Michigan, school counselor dot org says,

This essentially is what a school counselor is. They are not mental health professionals, but are still where teachers send students who appear to be having mental health issues at school. I had a kid punching the wall outside of class when I was letting my class in, obviously something going on, I ask what’s wrong and get a nothing response. I send him to see his counselor, as that is the only place to send him. They are not trained to deal with the mental health emotional issues they get sent. They get sent to them because they are the best equipped to deal with them though. Schools do have a school psychologist though, but most of their time is taken up dealing with special education issues. I have never had a counselor referral wind up being forwarded to the psychologist.

 

[Lithrael]

So OK, sure, you don’t want to get so hung up on choosing the best thing to do, that you do nothing.

You also don’t want to get so hung up on choosing to do something that you do something that a) is not obviously going to actually help and b) is obviously going to create a bunch of new adjacent problems.

 

[erlando]

LoL the fact you said this with a straight face is the funniest ******* thing I'll read all day. Again, is "fog of war" just not a thing in your world? What would the "administrator" say?

"Hello, police. We have an active shooter here at xxx school. We need police immediately. Also, Phil is going out there with his gun. He's wearing a light blue turtleneck, khakis and he'll be shooting a 9mm. Could you please make sure your cops don't shoot him?"

Yeah, that should be fine. I can't imagine a way something like that could go wrong. What do you think the cops would say? Think they'd say something along the lines of, "Could you please tell Phil to **** off because we have no idea what's going on and we'd prefer Phil not running around?"

Now imagine several armed teachers responding to a shooter.. How long before there's a responding teacher shooting another responding teacher because there was a gun?

 

[erlando]

2. Because you advise your administrator that you're going to engage, so that they can apprise the cops of the situation when they do show up.

Do the administrator advise the cops of which armed teachers are responding on the pre-engagement briefing that is always held before the cops respond to an active shooter?

 

[smartcooky]

Versus letting the shooter rampage from classroom to classroom unopposed for ten-fifteen minutes until the cops show up

That's going to happen anyway.

 

[Warp12]

Sometimes the cops don't show up....

The above link -- mislabeled "Sometimes the cops don't show up" -- is actually a link to a Wikipedia story about a school resource officer ("a cop") who was assigned to a South Florida high school when a former student began roaming the halls and shooting people. The resource officer, wearing a bullet proof vest, was already there. He was accused of remaining outside the school building during the carnage in which 34 people were shot, 17 fatally.

The resource officer said afterwards, "I didn't know where the shots were coming from." CNN report

Below is an image captured by a school hallway camera, showing the gunman Nikolas Cruz during the shooting spree. Cruz, who pleaded guilty to 17 counts of murder, is about to be sentenced in February. He faces a minimum sentence of life-no-parole. The maximum sentence would be the death penalty.

I wonder how many here would support a sentence of death? I mean, let's not get carried away with our outrage, right?

 

[Carrot Flower King]

What kind of training do school counselors or guidance counselors receive in the United States. Apparently the qualifications are on a state-by-state basis. A recruiting website notes there is a difference between school counselors and guidance counselors.


Specifically, in Michigan, school counselor dot org says,

Thank you.

No actual MH component then? (My counselling training didn't, as it was about the more technical aspects of counselling per se.)

I think it would be very unfair and unreasonable to expect someone with that sort of qualification to do any reasonable assessment of risk of suicide/self-harm or of any underlying MH issues; as I said before, mebbe be concerned and recommend, or make a referral for, a more detailed assessment from someone who does know, but no more.

 

[Ryan O'Dine]

Some schools in the U.S. have a social worker on staff, often one for multiple schools in the district. They tend to have some clinical training. But as I said upthread, expecting schools to be the primary line of defense in mental health care is begging for trouble.

To say we have a problem with guns in schools therefore let's throw more guns into the mix is daft on its surface. It's a cheap, feel good solution for some, I suspect a thought-free 'gotcha lib' answer for others that doesn't address the problem in any way that makes a lick of sense.

The answer is universal healthcare, parity between mental and physical health, a reduction in the stigma of mental illness and, of course, rational gun laws.

(As an aside, a single snapshot of my Google news feed yesterday included stories about a 3 year old who shot herself dead with the family gun on Christmas day; a 14 year old shooter sought by police, considered armed and dangerous; a teenager killed by a cop's stray bullet in a store dressing room; and a 16 year old shot dead by her father who mistook her for an intruder. Because, as we know, more guns is the answer.)

 

[Meadmaker]

Thank you.

No actual MH component then? (My counselling training didn't, as it was about the more technical aspects of counselling per se.)

I think it would be very unfair and unreasonable to expect someone with that sort of qualification to do any reasonable assessment of risk of suicide/self-harm or of any underlying MH issues; as I said before, mebbe be concerned and recommend, or make a referral for, a more detailed assessment from someone who does know, but no more.

In this case, though, if it's unfair to expect a counselor to do that assessment, is it fair to expect the parents to make that assessment?

That's why I just have a hard time justifying charging the parents unless they lied to the authorities, or misled them. If the only argument against them is "they should have known", I think that's unreasonable.

 

[Carrot Flower King]

In this case, though, if it's unfair to expect a counselor to do that assessment, is it fair to expect the parents to make that assessment?

That's why I just have a hard time justifying charging the parents unless they lied to the authorities, or misled them. If the only argument against them is "they should have known", I think that's unreasonable.

I would never expect parents to make any assessment of that nature; being concerned about Little Johnny or Joanne's behaviour is another matter, as is acting on a warning from someone else. Experience tells me that parents can be very bad indeed at recognising or knowing about suicidal thought or MH issues in their bairns, or can even be enabling or contributing, knowingly and otherwise.

Where I (warning: Brit, so little understanding of gun obsession) think they fell down was buying a gun for and giving it to someone who is not legally allowed to do that for themselves and then having no idea where this gun was, and then, if the various phone calls and messages are anything to go by, realising that he probably has it on him and they did nothing tp prevent that.

 

[smartcooky]

In this case, though, if it's unfair to expect a counselor to do that assessment, is it fair to expect the parents to make that assessment?

If they know he is a troubled teenager (which they did because they lived with him every day), saw the drawing by him depicting a handgun, a bullet and a person being shot , with the caption "the thoughts won't stop, please help me" and "blood everywhere" (and they did because the school showed it to them) and know he had access to a gun, then yes. Absolutely yes!!

Even the most blind parent must realize that he was a danger to himself and everyone around him, and at the very least, check his backpack for the gun.

 

[newyorkguy]

...Even the most blind parent must realize that he was a danger to himself and everyone around him, and at the very least, check his backpack for the gun.

At the very very least ask him, "Ethan where is the handgun we bought you. You don't have it with you, do you?" Then, instead of checking to make sure the gun was still in their home AFTER the shooting, check after leaving the school, before going back to work, and BEFORE the shooting.

I think the Crumbleys' legal problem is, isn't the standard they'll be judged by, what a "reasonable" parent would have done? Did they act reasonably? I'm a parent and I don't agree they acted reasonably in any manner, shape or form.

Recall also, there was a lot of discussion here about what Jennifer Crumbley, the mother, meant when she texted Ethan at 1:22 pm, "Don't do it." That the local news had 'only' reported an incident at the high school, police activity, no way she could have known, etc. But fifteen minutes later James Crumbley, the father, calls the police to tell them, his son Ethan may be "the shooter." At 1:37 pm after leaving work, driving home and looking for the handgun. That implies James Crumbley knew earlier than 1:37 pm that there had been a spree shooting at the high school. How'd he find out?

The actions of the father hasn't gotten any discussion here.

 

[erlando]

In this case, though, if it's unfair to expect a counselor to do that assessment, is it fair to expect the parents to make that assessment?

Knowing what they knew at the time? Yes.

 

[Suddenly]

In this case, though, if it's unfair to expect a counselor to do that assessment, is it fair to expect the parents to make that assessment?

That's why I just have a hard time justifying charging the parents unless they lied to the authorities, or misled them. If the only argument against them is "they should have known", I think that's unreasonable.

The counselor wasn't looking at this in the light of buying a gun for the kid and not securing it.

If the kid shot himself I'd still be on board with charging the parents with involuntary manslaughter (although some sort of neglect charge would probably be easier).

The facts aren't quite clear, but there is a possible version where this is arguably straight up murder as classically defined as depraved heart/indifference murder. That giving this kid a gun was analogous to shooting a gun into a dark room.

 

[Andy_Ross]

That's nothing new. We even called it "detention" when I was in school! Been there many times.

Were you locked in?