Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part IV

[Vixen]

I want to start by saying that I commend the artistic achievement of your "argument" based around confusing people with helicopters. It's a funny premise to begin with, but committing to it so hard for so many posts in the face of the JAIC's clear words elevates it to another level. Very well done.

My problem is that some of the surrounding details are vague and confusing, which spoils the effect. I think we need an answer to this question: Why do you think Svensson got a medal, and how does that fit into the overall theory? If you are right that the JAIC covered up almost all of his heroics, I can't find a good answer.

Was the awarding body in on the coverup but gave him the award anyway? That would be weird, since they would be publicly awarding him for something they were keeping from the public. Makes no sense.

Was the awarding body not in on the coverup, and awarded him without realizing his heroics were supposed to be covered up? In that case, how did they know the truth without also realizing the government was covering it up? And why did the conspiracy let them go through with giving the award? You have made it clear that the Swedish government was a main player in the conspiracy, and they should have been able to prevent Swedish government medals from being awarded for things they didn't want to officially acknowledge as happening. We are talking about a conspiracy that managed to change laws, treaties, reports and more to keep the truth hidden.

Was the awarding body was not in on the coverup and was only aware of the cover story? Then there was no reason to give Svensson the medal.

Or was the award part of the coverup as the price of Svensson's silence? That does have the aesthetic benefit of making Svensson a villain and not a hero, which is a conspiracy theory classic. The trouble is a public award doesn't make sense as a way to buy silence because it is so visible and raises questions about what he did to deserve it.

I can't think of a way to tie Svensson's medal into any kind of coherent conspiracy. I think that detracts from the beauty of it. Any ideas about how to fix it?

The Swedish Defence Forces military chief at the tie was Emil Svensson (I doubt they are related) and the person responsible for ordering the illicit Soviet cargo was another chief, Uwe Wictorin, who awarded Svensson his medal. The defence forces control MUST, their military spy wing so of course they must have all agreed it was to be a classified event. However Wictorin was keen to see Svensson rewarded for his early heroic feat and as reported in Aftonbladet and as repeated by later reports.

 

[zooterkin]

His rescue of the eight or nine surviors almost certainly happened on an earlier trip

For which you have produced absolutely no evidence whatsoever.

 

[Vixen]

Since you obviously know how to find 7.5.5. now, why don't you tell us how many people the report credits the "Y64 rescue man" with having saved? Especially how many he saved in the section describing Y 74's operations?



Okay, so the "shenanigans in the sea" took place during what you consider to be Y 64's later flight.

There is a problem: you said the Aftonbladet couldn't have reported on the later flight, and that anything that gets mentioned in your favorite extract from Bjorkman must therefore refer to the earlier flight.

But that extract describes the "shenanigans in the sea" with Y 74, which, according to you, took place during the later flight.

So if the article reports on events from the later flight, why can't it all just be about that one flight?

Simply juxtaposed from 0300 to 0500/0600 and creating an impression that Y64 shared in the rescue of six to obfuscate the fact Svensson rescued a further eight/nine of his own merit earlier on in the night.

The survivors list had to be adjusted downwards to take out the names of the Estonians who were originally on it.

 

[Reformed Offlian]

His rescue of the eight or nine surviors almost certainly happened on an earlier trip when 01:58 MRCC Stockholm put out the alert and the message from Turku MRCC to Silja Europa the Swedish helicopter was on its way in the transcript of the distress communications at 0227 and would be there in 'ten minutes'.

Aftonbladet only reports one trip. No one but you says there was a second one.

Aftonbladet also reports on events that, according to you, happened on the latter trip, rather than the earlier one, what you refer to as the "shenanigans at sea...with Y 74".

So the reporter must have known about the events of the (according to you) later trip, in addition to the purported earlier one.

If the Aftonblad journalist knew about both trips -which he must have, since according to you he reports on events from both of them- why does he only mention one?

And there is still the fact that the report is clearly wrong, even if we accept for argument's sake your reconstruction of events.

The Aftonblad article says that *at the time Svensson got separated from the helicopter*, there were eight survivors and one dead body in that helicopter, and that it went thence to Huddinge.

This is wrong, even according to you, since the additional rescuees were supposedly dropped off earlier. When Svensson cut loose, there was one survivor and zero dead bodies on Y 64, and the craft then went to Uto, not Huddinge.

 

[zooterkin]

The Swedish Defence Forces military chief at the tie was Emil Svensson (I doubt they are related) and the person responsible for ordering the illicit Soviet cargo was another chief, Uwe Wictorin, who awarded Svensson his medal. The defence forces control MUST, their military spy wing so of course they must have all agreed it was to be a classified event. However Wictorin was keen to see Svensson rewarded for his early heroic feat and as reported in Aftonbladet and as repeated by later reports.

And you claim this is not a conspiracy theory?

 

[Reformed Offlian]

Simply juxtaposed from 0300 to 0500/0600 and creating an impression that Y64 shared in the rescue of six to obfuscate the fact Svensson rescued a further eight/nine of his own merit earlier on in the night.

The survivors list had to be adjusted downwards to take out the names of the Estonians who were originally on it.

So, the JAIC report says that Svensson saved seven people, right? Not just one?

 

[Andy_Ross]

It is readily apparent that the link you provide is from the POV of the person/s needing rescue. IOW ETA will be within 60/90 minutes.



For your information, Helsingin Sanomat reports



Translation:



JAIC says:

7.5.5

Why has the JAIC delayed the time of the Visby plane Q97, which according to them was the 'first Swedish plane to arrive', using Finnish time. So the first helicopter from Sweden arrived at 0400 from Visby? I believe HS when it says 02:30 take off Finnish time, unless it has confabulated Y64 with it to avoid mentioning the fact the helicopters from Sweden DID take off promptly and DID NOT have a two hour standby.

Q97 Time from Visby to Uto one hour.
Y65 Time from Berga to Uto 40 minutes.
Y64 Y64 from Berga one hour seven minutes – an extra 27 minutes.

According to HS the first helicopter left Visby at 2:35 and therefore should have arrived 3:35.

From Berga we see from Y65 the time to reach Uto was 40 minutes, yet for some unknown reason, JAIC says it took Y64 half an hour longer than Y65 as it detoured to Huddinge hospital first.

I believe the truth is, whichever aircraft it was, Svensson did set off by 02:15 or even 0210 (hence the message from MRCC Turku to Silja Europa at 0227 'the first helicopter from Sweden will arrive in ten minutes'. This would explain the detour to Huddinge, as he dropped of the eight or nine he picked up and then went back. This is when the shenanigans in the sea took place with Y74 between six and seven.

You believe whatever you want, what you need is more evidence than stuff you invent yourself.

 

[Andy_Ross]

It has always been fifteen minutes. Are you seriously claiming Sweden Defence Forces are not ready for any imminent attack or distress call, and have all of their stuff on a 60 - 90 - 120 minute standby?


Go tell it to the marines!

Attack by what? Are they at war?

 

[Vixen]

It's not my job to explain who did and did not get medals. The awards themselves are a red herring. The relevant question is: what were the actions for which he got them?

Taking off from Berga by circa 0210, arriving circa 0300, rescuing eight or nine and taking them to Huddinge, whereupon he made a return trip, taking with him a nurse and a doctor.


The eight or nine almost certainly included the Chief Engineer, the Chief Navigator, the Medical Chief and the Fourth Officer.

I am not sure if Piht was in the same lifeboat as these as he was possibly picked up on the Mariella. He was last sighted on the ship throwing life vests and jumping overboard to a life raft.

 

[Reformed Offlian]

Taking off from Berga by circa 0210, arriving circa 0300, rescuing eight or nine and taking them to Huddinge, whereupon he made a return trip, taking with him a nurse and a doctor.

Citation (in more than one sense) needed. Nobody but you thinks that Svensson did any such thing.

 

[Vixen]

Attack by what? Are they at war?

Berga is actually a naval base. They are very proud of their military activities as evidenced by the youtube videos they have put out.

 

[zooterkin]

Taking off from Berga by circa 0210, arriving circa 0300, rescuing eight or nine and taking them to Huddinge, whereupon he made a return trip, taking with him a nurse and a doctor.


The eight or nine almost certainly included the Chief Engineer, the Chief Navigator, the Medical Chief and the Fourth Officer.

I am not sure if Piht was in the same lifeboat as these as he was possibly picked up on the Mariella. He was last sighted on the ship throwing life vests and jumping overboard to a life raft.

You have absolutely no evidence for any of this.

 

[Mojo]

His rescue of the eight or nine surviors almost certainly happened on an earlier trip when 01:58 MRCC Stockholm put out the alert and the message from Turku MRCC to Silja Europa the Swedish helicopter was on its way in the transcript of the distress communications at 0227 and would be there in 'ten minutes'.

Svensson got the medal as his rescue had to be classified owing to the people he picked up being top Estonian crew whom were listed as survivors but then mysteriously disappeared.

It was to compensate for being only credited with one rescue in the official JAIC figures.

Why didn’t the rest of the helicopter’s crew require similar compensation?

 

[Vixen]

Citation (in more than one sense) needed. Nobody but you thinks that Svensson did any such thing.

Look at the time lines. Chronology is all.

The distress call transcript.

The early day newspaper.

The MRCC operations log.

The early survivors lists.

 

[Vixen]

Why didn’t the rest of the helicopter’s crew require similar compensation?

Svensson's pilot was Agne Widholm. I am guessing he was just doing his job.

The Finnish guys got medals. In the same way the UK has New Years Honours, in Finland they get their honours on Independence Day from the President. The honours are in the form of medals, military and civilian, so there'll be a white rose or a red lion, etc. There is a whole list of names from the Estonia rescue as of that year.

How come Svensson is the only one mentioned in the Swedish Defence Forces Medals of Merit?

 

[Reformed Offlian]

Look at the time lines. Chronology is all.

The distress call transcript.

The early day newspaper.

Aftonbladet isn't an early day paper. The article describes events that, according to you, happened on a later trip.

None of the things you list report on what Svensson got his medal for.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Berga is actually a naval base. They are very proud of their military activities as evidenced by the youtube videos they have put out.

Maybe, but they don't keep ASW helicopters on standby, they aren't at war.

 

[Mojo]

Svensson's pilot was Agne Widholm. I am guessing he was just doing his job.

The Finnish guys got medals. In the same way the UK has New Years Honours, in Finland they get their honours on Independence Day from the President. The honours are in the form of medals, military and civilian, so there'll be a white rose or a red lion, etc. There is a whole list of names from the Estonia rescue as of that year.

How come Svensson is the only one mentioned in the Swedish Defence Forces Medals of Merit?

You claimed that the medal was awarded to Svensson “to compensate for being only credited with one rescue in the official JAIC figures.” This applies to the rest of Y64’s crew - they were only credited with one rescue. Why weren’t they compensated?

Svensson, by the way, is actually credited with seven rescues, as you would know if you had been reading this thread.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Svensson's pilot was Agne Widholm. I am guessing he was just doing his job.

The Finnish guys got medals. In the same way the UK has New Years Honours, in Finland they get their honours on Independence Day from the President. The honours are in the form of medals, military and civilian, so there'll be a white rose or a red lion, etc. There is a whole list of names from the Estonia rescue as of that year.

How come Svensson is the only one mentioned in the Swedish Defence Forces Medals of Merit?

His job according to you was to fly a secret mission to kidnap the officers from a ship that had just sunk.

Why wasn't he rewarded with a medal to keep his mouth shut?
What about the rest of the aircrew or the ground staff that prepared the helicopter?

Why is the rescue man the only one that needed bribing with a medal?

 

[whoanellie]

What has Estonia got to do with 'health and disease (including corona pandemic), environment, conspiracy theories, faith, environment, and man'?

I've highlighted the relevant category

Whilst personally I cannot abide anarchists, conspiracy theorists, anti-vaxxers and neo-nazis, I think it is contemptible to label people as 'stupid, mad or fanatical' or all three just BECAUSE THEY HAVE A DIFFERENT VIEW than the one you want them to have.

What about the following quote? How contemptible is it?

Of course no intelligent well-educated person is going to say, 'I believe in conspiracy theories, superstition and pseudoscience". Duh. You'd have to be pretty stupid to admit to being, er, stupid.

You need to prove that scepticism that the Estonia sunk because 'the bow visor fell off due to a design fault' as concluded on Day One by a politician and a lawyer, yet not by marine engineers or sea captains ' is due to an irrational tendency to believe in pseudoscience and anti-social nationalist ideology. A kind of 'defame and shame anyone who does not toe the line and believe what their government has told them to believe'.

You've provided all the proof I need.