Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part IV

[MarkCorrigan]

Prove it. What are the first six words on page 182?

"Milda Bendrich and her daughter were..."

That's page 182 on the Kindle version, of course right below an image of a diver at the wreck of the Wilhelm Gustloff. Alternatively you might be asking for the caption to the image since that comes before the main text, in which case it's "The wreck of the Wilhelm Gustloff on the seabed today"

Now you pony up. Give me the page.

 

[Reformed Offlian]

That is now, it was not then.

Being ready to fly in 15 minutes is not the same as being in the air in 15 minutes.

Also, there is such a thing as a SNAFU. Vixen is accusing the Swedish armed forces of disappearing people and covering up an act of terrorism (camel) but would not consider the possibility that they might fall short of some "15 minute rule" (gnat) even if that were a thing.

 

[Here_to_learn]

I couldn't find the Estonia survey.

I've given you the link twice. Here it is again.

​We can see the motivation behind these people as they call their surveys, "Conspiracy theories, superstition and pseudoscience in Sweden".

Of course no intelligent well-educated person is going to say, 'I believe in conspiracy theories, superstition and pseudoscience". Duh. You'd have to be pretty stupid to admit to being, er, stupid.

The question asked was:

Den verkliga orsaken till Estoniakatastrofen har mörklagts av myndigheterna

My translation:

The real cause of the Estonia catastrophe has been hidden by the government agencies.

As you can see, that does not match your pretend question above.

You need to prove that scepticism that the Estonia sunk because 'the bow visor fell off due to a design fault' as concluded on Day One by a politician and a lawyer, yet not by marine engineers or sea captains ' is due to an irrational tendency to believe in pseudoscience and anti-social nationalist ideology. A kind of 'defame and shame anyone who does not toe the line and believe what their government has told them to believe'.

No, I do not. That is a straw man fallacy, since I have not claimed any of that.

The conspiracy theory is clearly visible in this thread.

 

[Reformed Offlian]

Citation please of how you know, "He got the medal because he got stranded in the sea, was rescued and took over duties from another injured rescue man and worked until he himself was injured."

He got the Gold with Sword 'because he got stranded in the sea and had to be rescued'?

I suspect that the "took over duties from another injured rescue man and worked until he himself was injured" bit was more salient.

I just realized something I've been overlooking. The award of a medal like this should come with a citation that details the actions for which it is being rewarded.

Does anybody know how to find out what that citation says? That would obviate a lot of speculation about what the "official story" is.

 

[Mojo]

How come none of the other Swedish guys got a Gold with Sword medal?

A very good question, and one that your conspiracy theory doesn’t address. Why did the rest of Y64’s crew not also get Gold with Sword medals?

 

[Reformed Offlian]

Avoids the point as usual and still conflated Svensson with a helicopter. Do you concede that Aftonbladet does indeed report on events from the documented flight around 6am, or do you still insist that was too late to make that day's edition?

Let's not forget, too, that Aftonbladet reports on Y 64's winch breaking. Does Vixen think that Y64 made a second sortie with a broken winch?

And if Svensson's rescue by Y 74 happened on the earlier trip, does that mean Y 74 made a secret earlier trip, too?

 

[Stamuel]

Look at the list of helicopters I provided. The Finnish guys saved 35 in one night. There is no song and dance about losing a flipper in the sea.

The JAIC had to beef up Y64 antics to provide a cloak to explain how he got his Gold Medal with Sword. I dare say it is broadly true, except they omit the earlier rescue at circa 0300, as it is clearly classified and all mention of the previously listed survived Estonian crew removed from public view.

I want to start by saying that I commend the artistic achievement of your "argument" based around confusing people with helicopters. It's a funny premise to begin with, but committing to it so hard for so many posts in the face of the JAIC's clear words elevates it to another level. Very well done.

My problem is that some of the surrounding details are vague and confusing, which spoils the effect. I think we need an answer to this question: Why do you think Svensson got a medal, and how does that fit into the overall theory? If you are right that the JAIC covered up almost all of his heroics, I can't find a good answer.

Was the awarding body in on the coverup but gave him the award anyway? That would be weird, since they would be publicly awarding him for something they were keeping from the public. Makes no sense.

Was the awarding body not in on the coverup, and awarded him without realizing his heroics were supposed to be covered up? In that case, how did they know the truth without also realizing the government was covering it up? And why did the conspiracy let them go through with giving the award? You have made it clear that the Swedish government was a main player in the conspiracy, and they should have been able to prevent Swedish government medals from being awarded for things they didn't want to officially acknowledge as happening. We are talking about a conspiracy that managed to change laws, treaties, reports and more to keep the truth hidden.

Was the awarding body was not in on the coverup and was only aware of the cover story? Then there was no reason to give Svensson the medal.

Or was the award part of the coverup as the price of Svensson's silence? That does have the aesthetic benefit of making Svensson a villain and not a hero, which is a conspiracy theory classic. The trouble is a public award doesn't make sense as a way to buy silence because it is so visible and raises questions about what he did to deserve it.

I can't think of a way to tie Svensson's medal into any kind of coherent conspiracy. I think that detracts from the beauty of it. Any ideas about how to fix it?

 

[Vixen]

This was not the case in the 90s though. SAR was the responsibility of the military and the helicopters were on one hour standby.

In the 2000s the SAR service was run down by the military as the helicopter squadrons of the Navy and Air Force were amalgamated in to one organisation and dedicated to military duties.
Search and Rescue was taken on by the civilian Swedish Maritime Administration (SMA). through civil helicopter operator Norrlandsflyg on contract.
Norrlandsflyg was acquired by the SMA on 1 November 2011 and The helicopter division changed name to SMA Helicopter Rescue, it was formally incorporated in the Swedish Maritime Administration on 22 January 2014.
It currently operates Augusta Westland AW139s through a leasing company. These are much more capable than the helicopters in use at the time of the Estonia sinking.


from their own website

Objectives & Level of Ambition
Maritime Search and Rescue including medical evacuation from ships shall be performed on 24-hour basis, within areas specified in the Civil Protection Act.

The Search and Rescue service shall on Swedish territorial waters, within 60 minutes in 90 percent of all SAR operations, with airborne or surface search and rescue unit (SRU), after its crew has been alerted by the Maritime Rescue Co-ordination Centre (JRCC), and where the position is known, be able to rescue a person in distress. The equivalent value for a position on international waters of the Swedish Search and Rescue Region (SRR) is 90 minutes.

https://www.sjofartsverket.se/en/search-and-rescue/search-and-rescue/objectives--level-of-ambition/

No mention of 15 minutes.

It is readily apparent that the link you provide is from the POV of the person/s needing rescue. IOW ETA will be within 60/90 minutes.

The Search and Rescue service shall on Swedish territorial waters, within 60 minutes in 90 percent of all SAR operations, with airborne or surface search and rescue unit (SRU), after its crew has been alerted by the Maritime Rescue Co-ordination Centre (JRCC), and where the position is known, be able to rescue a person in distress.

For your information, Helsingin Sanomat reports

Hs Ruotsalaiset hälyttivät ensimmäiset helikopterinsa kello 1.58, ja ensimmäinen nousi Visbystä kello 2.35.

Translation:

The Swedes alerted their first helicopters at 1.58, and the first took off from Visby at 2.35.

JAIC says:

Q 97 (Super Puma)
The Swedish stand-by helicopter Q 97 took off from Visby at 0250 hrs, arriving at the scene of the accident at 0350 hrs. The OSC requested the helicopter to pick up as many people as possible from the sea.

7.5.5

Why has the JAIC delayed the time of the Visby plane Q97, which according to them was the 'first Swedish plane to arrive', using Finnish time. So the first helicopter from Sweden arrived at 0400 from Visby? I believe HS when it says 02:30 take off Finnish time, unless it has confabulated Y64 with it to avoid mentioning the fact the helicopters from Sweden DID take off promptly and DID NOT have a two hour standby.

Q97 Time from Visby to Uto one hour.
Y65 Time from Berga to Uto 40 minutes.
Y64 Y64 from Berga one hour seven minutes – an extra 27 minutes.

According to HS the first helicopter left Visby at 2:35 and therefore should have arrived 3:35.

From Berga we see from Y65 the time to reach Uto was 40 minutes, yet for some unknown reason, JAIC says it took Y64 half an hour longer than Y65 as it detoured to Huddinge hospital first.

I believe the truth is, whichever aircraft it was, Svensson did set off by 02:15 or even 0210 (hence the message from MRCC Turku to Silja Europa at 0227 'the first helicopter from Sweden will arrive in ten minutes'. This would explain the detour to Huddinge, as he dropped of the eight or nine he picked up and then went back. This is when the shenanigans in the sea took place with Y74 between six and seven.

 

[Vixen]

Being ready for duty and take off is not the same as being in the air in 15 minutes.

None of this has any bearing on the readiness and take off times being operated at the time of the Estonia sinking.

It has always been fifteen minutes. Are you seriously claiming Sweden Defence Forces are not ready for any imminent attack or distress call, and have all of their stuff on a 60 - 90 - 120 minute standby?


Go tell it to the marines!

 

[Vixen]

That is now, it was not then.

Being ready to fly in 15 minutes is not the same as being in the air in 15 minutes.

Even today the standard is "The Search and Rescue service shall on Swedish territorial waters, within 60 minutes in 90 percent of all SAR operations, with airborne or surface search and rescue unit (SRU), after its crew has been alerted by the Maritime Rescue Co-ordination Centre (JRCC), and where the position is known, be able to rescue a person in distress. The equivalent value for a position on international waters of the Swedish Search and Rescue Region (SRR) is 90 minutes."

What is in place now is not what was in place then but even then the first Swedish helicopter was in the air within an hour and over the rescue area in an hour.

That is the expected time of arrival at the distress scene. Or rather the time frame in which they are expected to have actively carried out a rescue.

 

[Vixen]

Why do you keep picking one small detail and asking if that is why he got a medal? yesterday it was because he lost a flipper.
You know it is dishonest to keep doing this.

Answer the question then. Why did Svensson get a Gold Medal with Sword and no-one else did? Surely, the guy who rescued him should have got it?

 

[Reformed Offlian]

It is readily apparent that the link you provide is from the POV of the person/s needing rescue. IOW ETA will be within 60/90 minutes.



For your information, Helsingin Sanomat reports



Translation:



JAIC says:

7.5.5

Why has the JAIC delayed the time of the Visby plane Q97, which according to them was the 'first Swedish plane to arrive', using Finnish time. So the first helicopter from Sweden arrived at 0400 from Visby? I believe HS when it says 02:30 take off Finnish time, unless it has confabulated Y64 with it to avoid mentioning the fact the helicopters from Sweden DID take off promptly and DID NOT have a two hour standby.

Q97 Time from Visby to Uto one hour.
Y65 Time from Berga to Uto 40 minutes.
Y64 Y64 from Berga one hour seven minutes – an extra 27 minutes.

According to HS the first helicopter left Visby at 2:35 and therefore should have arrived 3:35.

From Berga we see from Y65 the time to reach Uto was 40 minutes, yet for some unknown reason, JAIC says it took Y64 half an hour longer than Y65 as it detoured to Huddinge hospital first.

Since you obviously know how to find 7.5.5. now, why don't you tell us how many people the report credits the "Y64 rescue man" with having saved? Especially how many he saved in the section describing Y 74's operations?

I believe the truth is, whichever aircraft it was, Svensson did set off by 02:15 or even 0210 (hence the message from MRCC Turku to Silja Europa at 0227 'the first helicopter from Sweden will arrive in ten minutes'. This would explain the detour to Huddinge, as he dropped of the eight or nine he picked up and then went back. This is when the shenanigans in the sea took place with Y74 between six and seven.

Okay, so the "shenanigans in the sea" took place during what you consider to be Y 64's later flight.

There is a problem: you said the Aftonbladet couldn't have reported on the later flight, and that anything that gets mentioned in your favorite extract from Bjorkman must therefore refer to the earlier flight.

But that extract describes the "shenanigans in the sea" with Y 74, which, according to you, took place during the later flight.

So if the article reports on events from the later flight, why can't it all just be about that one flight?

 

[Vixen]

So your only evidence is your own subjective interpretation of a newspaper report.

It matches exactly later reports. Are you saying the Aftonbladet journalist was psychic?

 

[Vixen]

Agreed, that's why I highlighter the "Today".

This is how they describe the 15 minutes:



My translation:

In connection with a normal assignment, the crew must be changed and ready for duty no later than 15 minutes after the alarm and the helicopter must be pulled out of the hangar and ready to take off. The time from when the alarm comes in to the helicopter being able to take off is affected by the planning need that is linked to the operation.

Weather, distance and type of rescue operation are examples of factors that affect planning.

But as you say - this is today, not what was valid back when M/S Estonia sank.

No, it was not just 'today' it was also yesterday.

 

[junkshop]

Hey, Vixen,

Helicopters aren't planes, just FYI

 

[junkshop]

That is the expected time of arrival at the distress scene. Or rather the time frame in which they are expected to have actively carried out a rescue.

It can't be both these things. Pick one.

 

[Vixen]

I've given you the link twice. Here it is again.




The question asked was:


My translation:

The real cause of the Estonia catastrophe has been hidden by the government agencies.

As you can see, that does not match your pretend question above.

No, I do not. That is a straw man fallacy, since I have not claimed any of that.

The conspiracy theory is clearly visible in this thread.

Considering their assumption and mission statement is as follows:

2,500 people in a representative sample of the Swedish people were interviewed about their attitude to various subjects where science and pseudoscience often collide. The results have been divided into a number of categories: health and disease (including corona pandemic), environment, conspiracy theories, faith, environment, and man. The answers have been analyzed in several dimensions such as age, level of education, where you live and party sympathies.

Some results are positive: for example, confidence in vaccines is relatively high and attitudes towards science are relatively good. Other areas are more worrying: racist misconceptions and anti-Semitism occur, and knowledge of what is scientific is lacking. Lower levels of education are generally associated with contempt for science and belief in paranormal phenomena.

What has Estonia got to do with 'health and disease (including corona pandemic), environment, conspiracy theories, faith, environment, and man'?

Whilst personally I cannot abide anarchists, conspiracy theorists, anti-vaxxers and neo-nazis, I think it is contemptible to label people as 'stupid, mad or fanatical' or all three just BECAUSE THEY HAVE A DIFFERENT VIEW than the one you want them to have. To construct a survey that you claim proves your hypothesis that 'leftie, righties, climate changers, extinction rebels' are all low IQ morons and probably insane, is a disgraceful misuse of statistics.

 

[Vixen]

I suspect that the "took over duties from another injured rescue man and worked until he himself was injured" bit was more salient.

I just realized something I've been overlooking. The award of a medal like this should come with a citation that details the actions for which it is being rewarded.

Does anybody know how to find out what that citation says? That would obviate a lot of speculation about what the "official story" is.

So what about the guy who saved him? Shouldn't he get an honour, too? What about all of those rescue men who on paper rescued many more than Svensson did?

Participating helicopters:
Nationality Helicopter Number saved
Finnish Sea rescue helicopter OH-HVG 37
Swedish Air Force helicopter Q 97 15
Finnish Border Guard helicopter OH-HVD 14
Swedish Air Force helicopter Q 99 9
Finnish Border Guard helicopter OH-HVF 8
Finnish Air Force Helicopter X 92 8
Finnish Air Force Helicopter X 42 6
Swedish Air Force helicopter Q 91 6
Swedish Navy helicopter Y 68 6
Swedish Navy helicopter Y 74 6
Swedish Air Force helicopter Q 95 6
Finnish Border Guard helicopter OH-HVH 4
Finnish Air Force helicopter X 62 1
Swedish Navy helicopter Y 65 1
Swedish Navy helicopter Y 64 1
Finnish Air Force Helicopter X 82 -
Swedish Navy helicopter Y 69 -
Swedish Navy helicopter Y 72 -
Swedish Navy helicopter Y 73 -
Swedish Navy helicopter Y 75 -
Swedish Navy helicopter Y 76 -
Swedish Air Force helicopter O 98 -
https://sok.riksarkivet.se/estonia?infosida=helikopterinsatser

 

[Vixen]

Let's not forget, too, that Aftonbladet reports on Y 64's winch breaking. Does Vixen think that Y64 made a second sortie with a broken winch?

And if Svensson's rescue by Y 74 happened on the earlier trip, does that mean Y 74 made a secret earlier trip, too?

His rescue of the eight or nine surviors almost certainly happened on an earlier trip when 01:58 MRCC Stockholm put out the alert and the message from Turku MRCC to Silja Europa the Swedish helicopter was on its way in the transcript of the distress communications at 0227 and would be there in 'ten minutes'.

Svensson got the medal as his rescue had to be classified owing to the people he picked up being top Estonian crew whom were listed as survivors but then mysteriously disappeared.

It was to compensate for being only credited with one rescue in the official JAIC figures.

 

[Reformed Offlian]

So what about the guy who saved him? Shouldn't he get an honour, too? What about all of those rescue men who on paper rescued many more than Svensson did?

Participating helicopters:
Nationality Helicopter Number saved
Finnish Sea rescue helicopter OH-HVG 37
Swedish Air Force helicopter Q 97 15
Finnish Border Guard helicopter OH-HVD 14
Swedish Air Force helicopter Q 99 9
Finnish Border Guard helicopter OH-HVF 8
Finnish Air Force Helicopter X 92 8
Finnish Air Force Helicopter X 42 6
Swedish Air Force helicopter Q 91 6
Swedish Navy helicopter Y 68 6
Swedish Navy helicopter Y 74 6
Swedish Air Force helicopter Q 95 6
Finnish Border Guard helicopter OH-HVH 4
Finnish Air Force helicopter X 62 1
Swedish Navy helicopter Y 65 1
Swedish Navy helicopter Y 64 1
Finnish Air Force Helicopter X 82 -
Swedish Navy helicopter Y 69 -
Swedish Navy helicopter Y 72 -
Swedish Navy helicopter Y 73 -
Swedish Navy helicopter Y 75 -
Swedish Navy helicopter Y 76 -
Swedish Air Force helicopter O 98 -
https://sok.riksarkivet.se/estonia?infosida=helikopterinsatser

It's not my job to explain who did and did not get medals. The awards themselves are a red herring. The relevant question is: what were the actions for which he got them?