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Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part IV

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Captain_Swoop said:
Why would the engineers be charged with 'criminal gross negligence'?
What did they do that was criminal or negligent?

Again, why would it be unusual for a trained crew to be wearing survival suits? As soon as the alarm sounds you put on a suit. I can put one on in less than a minute. If I was on a ship that was listing and flooding in a storm I would have one on in a flash even if I was still trying to keep the power on.

Ships crew buy their own suits of better quality and longer immersion time than the usual SOLAS compliant suits that are standard gear on ships. They know where they are and how to use them.
Experienced crew also keep a waterproof 'grab bag' with things like passport and other documents ready to go.
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Had Captain Andresson survived and Avo Piht captured they would almost certainly be charged by sheer dint of being in charge. When the SS Park Victory smashed on rocks due to poor anchoring in Uto in 1947, the captain was charged with negligence. The buck stops with the captain.

If grossly obese Voronin and his family managed to survive without any problem and the 1917 born sea captain and his wife, then it seems obvious that those in the adjacent cabins and in the ones in the deck above, had an excellent chance of surviving. Likewise, Brit Paul Barney and Swede Sara Hedrenius, who had been kipping at the promenade deck cafeteria.
 
Vixen said:
The scoundrel's last resort: the good old ad hominem.
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Oh. Are you claiming not to know that an automatic release device releases whichever type of buoy has been fitted into it? In that case I withdraw my claim of deceit and offer you my condolences on the loss of memory which must be a severe trial to you.
 
Jack by the hedge said:
Show us in the operating instructions.
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From Svenska YLE:

On 27 January 1995, the navigation expert Asser Koivisto in Helsinki presented his study of Estonia's EPIRB buoys: radio buoys on the command bridge which, in floating position, are to start transmitting an exact GPS position and trigger a major international alarm.

According to Koivisto, the emergency buoys were tested and serviced in Stockholm a week before the disaster, but the crew had forgotten to put the buoys in on-position again. The buoys are usually switched off during land transport, to avoid false alarms.
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ibid
 
Captain_Swoop said:
No, the report was concerned with how and why the ship sank and the rescue process, not with the names of all the individual people rescued.
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Not talking about names but a proper list of who rescued whom instead of a nightmare hodge-podge of guys trapped in winches and sharing credit for survivors, simply to fudge the true number of survivors, AFAICS.
 
Jack by the hedge said:
To investigate the identities of the rescued passengers and crew?
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Northern Europe obsessed with privacy laws had no problems in printing a list of victim's names.

From HS 19.10.1994:

Estonia's 40 identified victims' names released STT 19.10.1994 2:00 The victim identification unit, which operates in connection with the National Bureau of Investigation, has released the names of the first Estonia victims.

Nineteen of them are Swedish citizens, 20 Estonians and one German. All 40 victims have been identified before. However, the names of the victims will only be made public after their relatives have been informed of the identification.

Swedish citizens Boije Gisela, Brändström Lars, Ehn Volter Johan, Engström Bernt Erik, Hagman Lars Erik Henrik, Hallberg Mai Gunnel Henny, Hansson Kristina Maria, Isacsson Pierre Einar, Isefjord Erik Håkan, Jonsson Lars Thony, Kain Eino Olavi, Larsson Margaretha Elisabeth, Mähl Kurt Sixten, Naaralainen Tiina Kaisa, Ormus Raimond, Roslund Bengt-Erik Vilhelm, Sandman Anna Linnea Kristina, Sandman Sören Evald, Sillanpää Leo Elmer.

Estonian citizens Sumberg Mati, Saar Kati, Koplimägi Sirje, Talvir Erkki-Janek, Haberman Liia, Kuller Andres, Sarap Marika, Tammes Andres, Tombak Ülle, Vahtras Kalev, Liiv Kalju, Alla Katrin, Ruben Vello, Oviir Annely, Kuik Liivi, Kukk Kalev,Paeorg Helin, Raiend Kristjan, Oja Aita, Türn Tarmo.

German national Augustin Herbert Wilhelm. (STT)
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Vixen said:
Northern Europe obsessed with privacy laws had no problems in printing a list of victim's names.



From HS 19.10.1994:
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The point of course was whether it was the JAIC's duty to list the names of survivors or to try to identify the missing. It wasn't.
 
Jack by the hedge said:
Well we already know that report is factually incorrect as it claims the buoys used GPS, which they absolutely did not. Got anything better?
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Sure.

Mikko Montonen [Turku MRCC Commander] is more concerned about where the ship's epirb buoys went. "The buoys had been serviced a couple of months ago. There were two of them and they should have been placed in the ship's superstructures so that at least one of them would float, no matter which side the ship capsized," Montonen says.

<snip>


The Epirb buoy is activated in water and sends name and position messages to satellites that transmit a message to a ground station, in the case of the Baltic Sea, to Bodöö, Norway. From there, the message will be transferred to the nearest marine rescue centre. Although the route sounds complicated, the message runs in a matter of seconds.
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HS 9.10.1994
 

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Vixen said:
Interesting that a witness saw a 'tall guy and a short guy' come out of the tunnel having an altercation of some sort.
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“Who’s on first?”
“Yes.”
“I mean the fellow's name.”
“Who.”
“The guy on first.”
“Who.”
“The first baseman.”
“Who.”
“The guy playing...”
“Who is on first!”
“I'm asking YOU who's on first.”
 
Vixen said:
Linde, Treu and the newbie guy were all together in the same life raft wearing survival suits even as Tammes was sending his mayday. That tells you something.
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What does it tell us? That they were negligent and left the passengers to die? That they bombed the ship themselves? How does it tell us that? Explain this to me, because I can't see any possible way that crew members being in a life raft could in any conceivable way be evidence of sabotage/attack/coverup.

By an amazing stroke of luck, Sillaste, who claims he didn't leave the Engine Room until 01:30 on jumping out of the funnel perchanced to see Linde, Treu and the other guy passing by and managed to join their raft!
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Good for him. That probably helped him survive. Is this supposed to be suspicious? Can you explain why? People trying to escape a sinking ship in a life raft is the least suspicious thing I have ever heard in my entire life. What am I missing?

Interesting that a witness saw a 'tall guy and a short guy' come out of the tunnel having an altercation of some sort.

Let's face it, the captains of the Oceanos and Concordas didn't hang around.

Why do you think they were charged with criminal gross negligence? Likewise David Lewry of the Herald of Free Enterprise.

Obviously someone somewhere doesn't think this behaviour is right.
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Were the captains of the Oceanos, Costa Concordia and Herald of Free Enterprise disappeared? No? So why would Sweden disappear the senior crew of the Estonia for similar negligence?

There is no theory here.
 
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