Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part IV

[Jack by the hedge]

... Life boats are easier to see, especially if they were equipped with flares and torches or whatever,

So they might very easily have been spotted by a rescue ship or a non-Swedish helicopter.

Is it really your claim that the Swedes picked them up by sheer fluke on an early flight that didn't happen other than being mentioned in a confused initial newspaper report?

 

[Vixen]

Isn't it one of the CT whackjobs who's implanted the bogus pseudoscientific belief into Vixen's head that once a ship reaches a certain degree of capsize (something around 90 degrees), it necessarily will roll all the way to an upside-down orientation?

Heh, at least I don't believe, 'A ship will land in the same position that it began to sink in', as you do.


<fx slaps thighs, bangs table, snorts with laughter>

 

[Andy_Ross]

Linde, Treu and the newbie guy were all together in the same life raft wearing survival suits even as Tammes was sending his mayday. That tells you something. By an amazing stroke of luck, Sillaste, who claims he didn't leave the Engine Room until 01:30 on jumping out of the funnel perchanced to see Linde, Treu and the other guy passing by and managed to join their raft!

Interesting that a witness saw a 'tall guy and a short guy' come out of the tunnel having an altercation of some sort.

Let's face it, the captains of the Oceanos and Concordas didn't hang around.

Why do you think they were charged with criminal gross negligence? Likewise David Lewry of the Herald of Free Enterprise.

Obviously someone somewhere doesn't think this behaviour is right.

Why would the engineers be charged with 'criminal gross negligence'?
What did they do that was criminal or negligent?

Again, why would it be unusual for a trained crew to be wearing survival suits? As soon as the alarm sounds you put on a suit. I can put one on in less than a minute. If I was on a ship that was listing and flooding in a storm I would have one on in a flash even if I was still trying to keep the power on.

Ships crew buy their own suits of better quality and longer immersion time than the usual SOLAS compliant suits that are standard gear on ships. They know where they are and how to use them.
Experienced crew also keep a waterproof 'grab bag' with things like passport and other documents ready to go.

 

[Andy_Ross]

You can turn off an automatically activated buoy. Of course you can.

Yes, you take it out of the water. there is only one switch on a buoy, it is a switch for manual activation, it will not turn off the automatic signal.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

You can turn off an automatically activated buoy. Of course you can.

Show us in the operating instructions.

 

[Andy_Ross]

It was a public inquiry...?

No, the report was concerned with how and why the ship sank and the rescue process, not with the names of all the individual people rescued.

 

[Vixen]

It's like you ignore or forget everything that has ever been posted in the thread.

Mr. Kettle meet Mr. Pot.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Heh, at least I don't believe, 'A ship will land in the same position that it began to sink in', as you do.


<fx slaps thighs, bangs table, snorts with laughter>

Who has claimed that?

 

[Jack by the hedge]

It was a public inquiry...?

To investigate the identities of the rescued passengers and crew?

 

[Vixen]

Lots of gaping holes in your plot. How would sinking the Estonia "cover up" the fact that smuggled electronics had been transported aboard the Estonia on two previous occasions? How would "disappearing" its officers have covered anything up when there is no reason to suppose anyone on the ferry itself had been complicit in the smuggling? Why are there no first hand accounts of anyone seeing the "disappeared" men?

What is the probability that an early helicopter flight (which didn't really happen) by complete fluke rescued the exact 9 men Sweden wanted to disappear for no clear reason?

The Swedish government then was not to know that as a result of the disaster, a senior customs officer would come forward and blow the whistle on the illicit cargo smuggling, which bypassed the government laws with orders coming straight from the secret services defence forces. Ten year's later, it was forced to admit in the Riksdag, 2005, this had indeed happened on the two occasions the customs guy said it happened and the documents into the claims were destroyed so no Swedish citizen could access them as was their democratic right.

 

[Vixen]

There were helicopters already at the scene. Fresh medical staff were picked up.

Notice that the Navy helicopters were sent at one hour intervals. If they had all gone at once then they would all have run out of fuel and crew time at once.
How long were the medics that were there from the start supposed to stay on duty?
Helicopters are restricted in the dark, they can't see anything on the surface that isn't in their searchlight. They work far better in daylight.

There was ample time for the 'nurse and doctor' to arrive at the Berga base by taxi or by another helicopter.

It was convenient for Y64 because it is obvious he had just dropped off eight or nine survivors and he happened to be there.

 

[Vixen]

More precisely, by what magical power did the surprised Swedes manage to pluck the officers out of the sea before anyone else noticed them?

Why would they want to interrogate the senior crew when all they knew was the ship had foundered?

Why, if by some total miracle they found they had rescued all the senior officers, did they need to "disappear"?

Fill the holes. So far this plot is so incoherent it wouldn't even make a Dr. Who story.

On finding out that helicopter Y64 had delivered them. It is not surprising the senior crew should have a high chance of survival, after all.


Who knows what these crew may or may not have known.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

The Swedish government then was not to know that as a result of the disaster, a senior customs officer would come forward and blow the whistle on the illicit cargo smuggling, which bypassed the government laws with orders coming straight from the secret services defence forces. Ten year's later, it was forced to admit in the Riksdag, 2005, this had indeed happened on the two occasions the customs guy said it happened and the documents into the claims were destroyed so no Swedish citizen could access them as was their democratic right.

So that further undermines your plot with an even bigger hole. Sweden had no motive for scrambling to seize and "disappear" the Estonia's officers. So why do you claim they did, and how do you claim they managed it?

 

[Vixen]

I don't know what you mean by this. Y 74 is credited with bringing six of Svensson's rescuees home because that's what happened. Svensson is credited with pulling them out of the water because that is also what happened. The rest of the Y 64 crew doesn't get credit for rescuing those six because that didn't happen.

I should say that if anything, the fact that Svensson went above and beyond by volunteering to take over after the Y 74 rescue man got hurt makes him more of a hero, not less of one.

The Swedish government doesn't agree with you.

https://sok.riksarkivet.se/estonia?infosida=helikopterinsatser

 

[Jack by the hedge]

On finding out that helicopter Y64 had delivered them. It is not surprising the senior crew should have a high chance of survival, after all.





Who knows what these crew may or may not have known.

You have no idea, then. You don't know why Sweden would have "disappeared" those men. Your conspiracy falls apart.

 

[Vixen]

Y 64 had to leave because it's winch failed. It was an anti submarine helicopter. It did not have the same winch dedicated search and rescue capability as a dedicated helicopter.

It had to leave it's rescue man in the water and call on another helicopter for assistance. It then delivered the survivor it had aboard and went to base for repair.

What was 'left out'? You mean your entire fictional mission that it is supposed to hav performed earlier in the night when it wasn't flying?

What is left out is Y64 and Y74's initial flight leaving shortly after 02:00, and as reported in the early day Aftonbladet. Likewise in the 'Mayday' transcript you can hear the ship captain (Mariella, IIRC) state clearly that the Swedish helicopters would be there in 'ten minutes'.

 

[Vixen]

How would that be done?
How would they steal the buoys without being noticed?
How would they put them in the water without them activating if they are automatic buoys as you claim?

Automatic buoys can be turned off and they often are whilst docked on land. This is because it is a frightful waste of time and money if they are set off when there is no emergency.

Some guy in Finland was recently fined for setting off some kind of emergency flare as a prank in the countryside.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

The Swedish government doesn't agree with you.



https://sok.riksarkivet.se/estonia?infosida=helikopterinsatser

Which bit does it not agree with?

 

[Vixen]

It releases a buoy.

You know this, we know this. Automatic activation is your dishonest weasel claim crowbarred in hoping nobody would bother to contradict your deceit.

The scoundrel's last resort: the good old ad hominem.

 

[Reformed Offlian]

The Swedish government doesn't agree with you.

https://sok.riksarkivet.se/estonia?infosida=helikopterinsatser

It seems that, in fact, they do. This is simply a list of the number of people rescued by helicopter. One was rescued by Y 64 and six by Y 74, which is exactly what the JAIC says, and exactly what I've been telling you.

Nothing here about Svensson or Molberg.