Discussion: Transwomen are not women (Part 7)

[Paul2]

What's wrong with calling trans ideology "trans ideology"? What else do you call a quasi-religious belief system that maintains that humans can be born in a wrong-sexed body?

There's nothing inherent in the idea of being born into a body in which the brain feels like the body should be the other sex that would eliminate it as a real physiological and psychological condition.

Whether people in such a condition, and others, deserve certain social and human rights or not - especially when they might come into conflict with others' social or human rights - may well be part of a dogmatic ideology - on both sides of that question.

 

[lionking]

I don't know about lionking, but I buy books for all kinds of reasons, not all having to do with whether I think I will enjoy them. Sometimes I even buy a book with no intention of reading it.

Supporting a writer who stands up to TRA bullying is hardly the worst reason.

She's not even anti-trans. She just doesn't support the whole TRA agenda.

Exactly. The books were good by the way.

 

[d4m10n]

Share and enjoy!

I've got one last question about the article originally linked by ST.

Do you think people are generally aware of and responsive to recently passed city ordinances?

I'd say likely not, but the authors of the article need the answer to be strongly affirmative, otherwise their matched pairs framework doesn't make any sense.

 

[Ziggurat]

There's nothing inherent in the idea of being born into a body in which the brain feels like the body should be the other sex that would eliminate it as a real physiological and psychological condition.

I don't think anyone is disputing that.

But JJ is speaking to a belief which goes beyond that. In particular, the concept of a "wrong body" doesn't automatically follow from "being born into a body in which the brain feels like the body should be the other sex". When there is such a mismatch, does that mean that the body is wrong, or does that mean that there's something wrong with the brain that doesn't accept the body it has? In fact, given that the brain is part of the body, how can you even have the wrong body for a brain? There is something almost religious about the "wrong body" framing of the issue. It's very much along the lines of a belief in a soul: that there's some essence of a person that is separate from and independent of the body.

So I'd say JJ has it right. BUT...

While I find that quite interesting, and think it provides some insight into the fervor with which many activists push things, the more immediate problem is indeed the one you point to here:

Whether people in such a condition, and others, deserve certain social and human rights or not - especially when they might come into conflict with others' social or human rights - may well be part of a dogmatic ideology - on both sides of that question.

Accepting the "wrong body" framing doesn't automatically lead to radical positions about societal accommodations, nor does avoiding it necessarily prevent one from taking such positions. But despite the lack of a logical connection (as in, one flows logically from the other), there does seem to be a significant correlation.

 

[Paul2]

I don't think anyone is disputing that.

But JJ is speaking to a belief which goes beyond that. In particular, the concept of a "wrong body" doesn't automatically follow from "being born into a body in which the brain feels like the body should be the other sex". When there is such a mismatch, does that mean that the body is wrong, or does that mean that there's something wrong with the brain that doesn't accept the body it has?

Yes, that's true, and there's no way to tell whether the brain should change or the body should change, or some other accommodation, without getting into the details of individual cases.

But I read JJ to mean that *any* case of body dysmorphia was ideological. If I mis-read JJ, my apologies and I retract my comment. If I didn't mis-read JJ, then your comment doesn't refute my rebuttal. There may well be cases in which it's the body that needs to change that is not a dogmatic ideology (but see right below about the brain being party of the body).

In fact, given that the brain is part of the body, how can you even have the wrong body for a brain? There is something almost religious about the "wrong body" framing of the issue. It's very much along the lines of a belief in a soul: that there's some essence of a person that is separate from and independent of the body.

At a certain level of analysis, the brain is obviously part of the body. At another level, we can profitably make the distinction between them, and it's at that level that my comment was working on.

 

[Olmstead]

The framing is ideological. Whether a person should change their brain to accept their body or change their body into something that will be accepted by their brain is a practical and moral issue, but it says nothing about whether a woman has been born inside a man's body or a man only perceives that they have been born in the wrong body. Biologically speaking, the idea of being born in the wrong body is preposterous, as there is no known mechanism in which something like that could occur, unless there is such a thing as a gendered soul.

 

[Paul2]

The framing is ideological. Whether a person should change their brain to accept their body or change their body into something that will be accepted by their brain is a practical and moral issue, but it says nothing about whether a woman has been born inside a man's body or a man only perceives that they have been born in the wrong body. Biologically speaking, the idea of being born in the wrong body is preposterous, as there is no known mechanism in which something like that could occur, unless there is such a thing as a gendered soul.

If men’s brains and psychology are different then womens’ even a little - and why should brains and psychology be immune to the vast and deep evolutionary pressures that distinguished the sexes (even as evolution is not social destiny, either) - then we might expect in a few cases a brain or personality enough male or female with the body the reverse to cause a condition worth treating one way or the other.

 

[gnome]

It's false. The policy allowing transgender students to use the restroom of their choice was implemented in 2019.

The highly publicized policy change in July, 2021 extended the transgender rights policy to include not just bathrooms, but also locker rooms and sports teams. It also required teachers to refer to students by preferred pronouns.

Thank you, that does add clarity.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

What you are missing is that if he is not transgender, he was a cis-male in the women's bathroom and his access was not challenged because his presentation led people to assume he was trans. It's an example of how cis men can exploit policy meant to help trans-people.

Do you agree that cis men should not be allowed to exploit these policies?

I still haven't seen any evidence that this guy was ever using the women's restroom for anything other than covert meetings with his girlfriend for sex, which obviously were forbidden by rules anyway. Restrooms stalls are one of the few places in a school were students can have privacy, so they are the obvious preferred location for engaging in unapproved behavior.

It's kinda funny that after all this kerfuffle by this frothy mouthed mob, the trans person taking advantage of the policy does not seem to actually be trans, and that the bathroom policy was not really relevant. A snipe hunt that ignored the reality of two very serious crimes and the victims.

Seems an awful lot to me that these reactionaries saw one picture of this kid in a skirt and invented an entire scenario in their heads to get mad about.

It makes sense when you put it in context. As Meadmaker has pointed out, these contentious public meetings were already at a high boil surrounding the issue of trans rights, specifically around the removal (and reinstatement) of a gym teacher that refused to comply with the new anti-discrimination policy. The pump was primed for some outrage against the idea of a trans predator taking advantage of such policies, so they heard vague details of a rape in a bathroom and filled in the grey areas to suit their needs.

 

[Lithrael]

Yeah but they are referring to the way the relaxing of gender standards allowed the kid to enter the restroom without a klaxon going off and the stairs flattening to dump them back outside in the hall. In the old days this type of bathroom assault never happened because the rapist would not be able to get into the girls’ restroom. It happened behind the bleachers instead.

 

[Louden Wilde]

If men’s brains and psychology are different then womens’ even a little - and why should brains and psychology be immune to the vast and deep evolutionary pressures that distinguished the sexes (even as evolution is not social destiny, either) - then we might expect in a few cases a brain or personality enough male or female with the body the reverse to cause a condition worth treating one way or the other.

Keep in mind there are plenty of people who don't conform to sex-specific stereotypes, but don't claim to be the other sex/feel the need to be addressed as the other sex. That being said, I don't think any of the regular participants in this thread deny that there are people who suffer from gender dysphoria (though I think much of this problem be could be mitigated by therapy and getting society to reduce/eliminate sex stereotypes).

Some points: The current gender ideology TRAs are against the idea of gender dysphoria as 'the' criteria for being trans (and demonize those that do advocate for this). In fact, they are against *any* kind of assay/criteria except self-ID.

At the same time, they claim that both gender/ID can be fluid, but is also a fixed internal, immutable property(soul-like, as JihadJane & Ziggurat noted) and cannot spread socially (and oppose any research into this phenomenon, for which there is evidence).

I was struck by a recent tweet by a de-transitioner named Carol in response to someone's disbelief that a child could be coaxed into declaring themselves trans:
It’s actually very easy. You ask them if they’ve ever felt uncomfortable in their body. Then you ask if they prefer boys things or girls things. Then you encourage intense ruminating on this subject. Rinse and repeat.

ETA - I keep forgetting to ask if your username is a molecular biology homage.

 

[Meadmaker]

the trans person taking advantage of the policy does not seem to actually be trans,

Which is precisely the point that has been hammered home again and again and again, and to which you appear to remain completely oblivious.

 

[Paul2]

Keep in mind there are plenty of people who don't conform to sex-specific stereotypes, but don't claim to be the other sex/feel the need to be addressed as the other sex. That being said, I don't think any of the regular participants in this thread deny that there are people who suffer from gender dysphoria (though I think much of this problem be could be mitigated by therapy and getting society to reduce/eliminate sex stereotypes).

Some points: The current gender ideology TRAs are against the idea of gender dysphoria as 'the' criteria for being trans (and demonize those that do advocate for this). In fact, they are against *any* kind of assay/criteria except self-ID.

At the same time, they claim that both gender/ID can be fluid, but is also a fixed internal, immutable property(soul-like, as JihadJane & Ziggurat noted) and cannot spread socially (and oppose any research into this phenomenon, for which there is evidence).

I was struck by a recent tweet by a de-transitioner named Carol in response to someone's disbelief that a child could be coaxed into declaring themselves trans:
It’s actually very easy. You ask them if they’ve ever felt uncomfortable in their body. Then you ask if they prefer boys things or girls things. Then you encourage intense ruminating on this subject. Rinse and repeat.

Sure, generally. I think this conversation I'm having in this thread with several people is merely hung up on who is making a claim, is the claim universal or allows for exceptions, etc., logical conclusions following all that, rather than any substantive disagreement. Nothing more than that, unless JJ's comment, which prompted my first post about this, was denying gender dysphoria outright.

ETA - I keep forgetting to ask if your username is a molecular biology homage.

No, it's a homage to my lack of preparation, lack of impulse control, and lack of imagination when I chose my username.

 

[TomB]

Which is precisely the point that has been hammered home again and again and again, and to which you appear to remain completely oblivious.

I think the majority of the concerns of trans men having access to the women's spaces have little to do with trans people and more to do with cis people abusing loopholes that may be created.

If the staff sees a male in girl's clothing enter the female restroom, what are they to do? I don't know if this kid was seen entering or leaving the bathroom for their liaisons, but what if they were?

Are staff supposed to question their gender identity?
Or are they specifically not supposed to question his gender identity?

Given that a cis-man's presence is itself a violation of privacy, how do you keep cis-men out while allowing trans women in? Because that, I think, should be a common goal for both sides of this debate.

 

[Ziggurat]

Biologically speaking, the idea of being born in the wrong body is preposterous, as there is no known mechanism in which something like that could occur, unless there is such a thing as a gendered soul.

Actually, there may be such a mechanism: mixed sex chimeras. I doubt most transgender people are mixed sex chimeras, but some of them may be, and it's an intriguing possibility that deserves some research.

But it's not PC, so probably nobody will do it.

 

[Louden Wilde]

Actually, there may be such a mechanism: mixed sex chimeras. I doubt most transgender people are mixed sex chimeras, but some of them may be, and it's an intriguing possibility that deserves some research.

But it's not PC, so probably nobody will do it.

I used to raise this phenomenon when I taught grad dev bio (& mentioned it as an intriguing possibility for those with severe GD)! Two problems I see are:

1. It's difficult to test rigorously - ideally you'd want biopsies from a number of tissues - including brain (maybe including multiple regions) as the two cell types are likely not evenly distributed. One thing you could do is is examine cell-free DNA in the blood very carefully to look for evidence of alternate genotypes - (e.g. focusing on X dosage in GD males).

2. The current wave of TRAs/gender ideologists (particularly the 'TW lesbian' and/or AGP types) would be against any easy test.

 

[d4m10n]

WELL ACKSHULLAY

It's kinda funny that after all this kerfuffle by this frothy mouthed mob, the trans person taking advantage of the policy does not seem to actually be trans, and that the bathroom policy was not really relevant.

If Meadmaker is correct at #3240 the policy was implemented in plenty of time for this particular gender nonconforming student to take advantage, whether they turn out to be "actually" trans or not.

What does it mean to be actually trans by the way?

(I've been told self-identification is all that matters, and it may change from day to day.)

 

[TurkeysGhost]

If Meadmaker is correct at #3240 the policy was implemented in plenty of time for this particular gender nonconforming student to take advantage, whether they turn out to be "actually" trans or not.



What does it mean to be actually trans by the way?



(I've been told self-identification is all that matters, and it may change from day to day.)

Is there any reason to think this was the case, other than wishful thinking?

Seems far more plausible to me that someone meeting up for sex in a public toilet would be doing so in a way to avoid detection.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Which is precisely the point that has been hammered home again and again and again, and to which you appear to remain completely oblivious.

Come on now, you're quoting me and cropping out the part that addresses this exact point.

What evidence is there that this student was openly using the women's restroom rather than sneaking in for the secret meetups?

 

[d4m10n]

Is there any reason to think this was the case, other than wishful thinking?

I'll answer your question if you answer mine.