Discussion: Transwomen are not women (Part 7)

[TomB]

Yeah but was this kid using the woman's toilet? All the reporting mentions that the two students were regularly meeting up in the restroom, but nothing mentions that this student was regularly identifying as a girl and using the girl's restroom for anything except clandestine meetings.

I dont see anyone in a position to know asserting that the rapist student actually identified as a girl, it seems a lot of people just assumed it based on his androgynous clothing. Maybe just another assumed element in this circus of speculation.

You continue to miss the point. It's not about the student being transgender. It's that, because of presentation, the student was assumed to be transgender. We know that this is the case for the principal. People making that assumption will not question his presence in the bathroom.

What you are missing is that if he is not transgender, he was a cis-male in the women's bathroom and his access was not challenged because his presentation led people to assume he was trans. It's an example of how cis men can exploit policy meant to help trans-people.

Do you agree that cis men should not be allowed to exploit these policies?

 

[d4m10n]

I dunno, any evidence to suggest that such an assumption is even relevant to this case would be nice.

What sort of evidence would you accept in support of the proposition that it is easier for males to enter spaces formerly reserved for females once we've done away with the cultural norm that they may be challenged for doing so?

 

[JihadJane]

Probably not bad odds considering the right wing swing the cursed isle is going through right now.

The UK has just witnessed a huge swing against its reeling rightwing government in a recent bi-election.

Active resistance against "born in the wrong body" trans ideology has predominantly been from the left in the UK.

 

[p0lka]

You continue to miss the point. It's not about the student being transgender. It's that, because of presentation, the student was assumed to be transgender. We know that this is the case for the principal. People making that assumption will not question his presence in the bathroom.

What you are missing is that if he is not transgender, he was a cis-male in the women's bathroom and his access was not challenged because his presentation led people to assume he was trans. It's an example of how cis men can exploit policy meant to help trans-people.

Do you agree that cis men should not be allowed to exploit these policies?

Do you mean cis people should not be allowed to exploit these policies?

 

[TomB]

Do you mean cis people should not be allowed to exploit these policies?

yes, cis people.

 

[d4m10n]

Breaking news

https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out...ing-jk-rowlings-anti-trans-positions-rcna9149

 

[TurkeysGhost]

It's pretty impressive how thoroughly Rowling has tarnished her reputation. I guess "death of the author" is doing a lot of heavy lifting for the very active harry potter fanbase.

 

[Ziggurat]

It's pretty impressive how thoroughly Rowling has tarnished her reputation. I guess "death of the author" is doing a lot of heavy lifting for the very active harry potter fanbase.

Twitter isn’t real life. I doubt she’s actually lost that many fans over this. Most people probably don’t care.

 

[lionking]

Twitter isn’t real life. I doubt she’s actually lost that many fans over this. Most people probably don’t care.

I think she may have gained fans. I was never taken with Harry Potter, but bought all her detective books because of the ridiculous TRA over-reaction to her opinions.

 

[Ziggurat]

Do you mean cis people should not be allowed to exploit these policies?

No. Cis women will not try to.

 

[gnome]

You continue to miss the point. It's not about the student being transgender. It's that, because of presentation, the student was assumed to be transgender. We know that this is the case for the principal. People making that assumption will not question his presence in the bathroom.

What you are missing is that if he is not transgender, he was a cis-male in the women's bathroom and his access was not challenged because his presentation led people to assume he was trans. It's an example of how cis men can exploit policy meant to help trans-people.

Do you agree that cis men should not be allowed to exploit these policies?

What about the indication that at the time, the school had no such policy? That he just went in anyway even though he was not "allowed to". If we're going to try and generalize something from that, it seems like it shows that the policy being one way or another is little hindrance to someone who has trouble in mind.

 

[LondonJohn]

I think she may have gained fans. I was never taken with Harry Potter, but bought all her detective books because of the ridiculous TRA over-reaction to her opinions.

Huh? You bought her books as a reaction to her anti-transgender views landing her in trouble? Is this sort of thing a usual criterion in your selection of reading material (rather than things like, say, whether you think the books will be any good or not...)?

 

[LondonJohn]

Twitter isn’t real life. I doubt she’s actually lost that many fans over this. Most people probably don’t care.

Warner Bros certainly think many/most people care. And I suspect they have a much, much better handle on these sorts of issues than the likes of you or I. Just sayin'

 

[LondonJohn]

The UK has just witnessed a huge swing against its reeling rightwing government in a recent bi-election.

Active resistance against "born in the wrong body" trans ideology has predominantly been from the left in the UK.

No. It was one by-election (not "bi-election"), and it was nothing whatsoever to do with any societal social issues. It was entirely to do with 1) the resignation of the previous (Conservative) MP for matters related to serious personal misconduct, 2) there having been a huge kicking of the Conservative Government over Christmas parties from 2020, when harsher restrictions had just been re-imposed across much of the UK, and 3) the fact that the incumbent government always gets a kicking in any mid-term by-elections. Oh and 4) there was a huge amount of tactical voting, meaning that the LibDem candidate won by taking share from both the Conservatives and Labour.

All of those things were the actual reason behind what happened in the by-election. And furthermore, you're entirely wrong in your attempt to create linkage between what you pejoratively call "trans-ideology" (noted) and the place of any party/individual on the political spectrum. The UK is not at all like the US in this respect (where broadly speaking, the small-c-conservative right are against trans rights, while democrats are more in favour of such rights). By contrast, in the UK there are many within the Conservative (right-wing) party who are strongly in favour of transgender rights, just as there are many within the LibDem and Labour parties who similarly favour transgender rights. Indeed, it's taken cross-party support to get transgender-related legislation onto the statute book: there are opponents to this across the spectrum, from reactionary hard-right Conservatives to various factions within the LibDem and Labour parties.

It's interesting and somewhat edifying to note though that we in the UK have, over the past 7-8 years or so, introduced a whole host of progressinve new laws which have recognised and protected transgender individuals within society. And all under the stewardship of a right-of-centre government.

 

[LondonJohn]

Here;s the wording: (in English translation)

The bill, voted in on Tuesday, bans all “practices, behaviours, and repeated statements with the intent of modifying or repressing a person’s real or perceived sexual orientation or gender identity, and having the effect of a material alteration to their mental or physical health”.


The problem I see is that a therapist in France is now required, by law, to accept any self diagnosis of transgenderism. Failure to do so risks a two year prison sentence. I foresee an awful lot of therapists refusing to treat gender non-conforming individuals. And if someone seeks counseling when they are considering detransitioning, I can't imagine a therapist even allowing the person into their office. It's just too risky.


If the law were not so broad, targeting people who actually advertise therapy whose purpose was "conversion", I would think it was a good law.

Nope. You're misinterpreting.

What psychiatrists and therapists in France are not now allowed to do is actively try to convince/persuade the person that the feelings they have are inauthentic and that the person ought to put such feelings out of their minds (etc).

Psychiatrists and therapists in France will still have carte blanche to explore the person's thought processes and inner feelings with them, and to try to help the person understand their identity and its foundations.

I foresee just as many psychiatrists and therapists in France working with transgender people as before. Including people who wish to detransition.

 

[crazycat]

Huh? You bought her books as a reaction to her anti-transgender views landing her in trouble? Is this sort of thing a usual criterion in your selection of reading material (rather than things like, say, whether you think the books will be any good or not...)?

I don't know about lionking, but I buy books for all kinds of reasons, not all having to do with whether I think I will enjoy them. Sometimes I even buy a book with no intention of reading it.

Supporting a writer who stands up to TRA bullying is hardly the worst reason.

She's not even anti-trans. She just doesn't support the whole TRA agenda.

 

[Manger Douse]

Huh? You bought her books as a reaction to her anti-transgender views landing her in trouble? Is this sort of thing a usual criterion in your selection of reading material (rather than things like, say, whether you think the books will be any good or not...)?

Exactly what anti-transgender views does Jk Rowling have? In her own words if you would

 

[JihadJane]

It's pretty impressive how thoroughly Rowling has tarnished her reputation. I guess "death of the author" is doing a lot of heavy lifting for the very active harry potter fanbase.

Ha ha! There's a good chance she will be voted Person of the Year in a Guardian newspaper poll. You can vote for her here

 

[JihadJane]

No. It was one by-election (not "bi-election"), and it was nothing whatsoever to do with any societal social issues. It was entirely to do with 1) the resignation of the previous (Conservative) MP for matters related to serious personal misconduct, 2) there having been a huge kicking of the Conservative Government over Christmas parties from 2020, when harsher restrictions had just been re-imposed across much of the UK, and 3) the fact that the incumbent government always gets a kicking in any mid-term by-elections. Oh and 4) there was a huge amount of tactical voting, meaning that the LibDem candidate won by taking share from both the Conservatives and Labour.

All of those things were the actual reason behind what happened in the by-election. And furthermore, you're entirely wrong in your attempt to create linkage between what you pejoratively call "trans-ideology" (noted) and the place of any party/individual on the political spectrum. The UK is not at all like the US in this respect (where broadly speaking, the small-c-conservative right are against trans rights, while democrats are more in favour of such rights). By contrast, in the UK there are many within the Conservative (right-wing) party who are strongly in favour of transgender rights, just as there are many within the LibDem and Labour parties who similarly favour transgender rights. Indeed, it's taken cross-party support to get transgender-related legislation onto the statute book: there are opponents to this across the spectrum, from reactionary hard-right Conservatives to various factions within the LibDem and Labour parties.

It's interesting and somewhat edifying to note though that we in the UK have, over the past 7-8 years or so, introduced a whole host of progressinve new laws which have recognised and protected transgender individuals within society. And all under the stewardship of a right-of-centre government.

So no "right wing swing" then, as Mr(?) Turkey asserts.

What's wrong with calling trans ideology "trans ideology"? What else do you call a quasi-religious belief system that maintains that humans can be born in a wrong-sexed body?

And what is progressive about letting blokes into women's protected, sex-segregated spaces and services, led by regressive, 1950's-style sex stereotypes?

The UK's current government is not "centre right". And, I'll repeat, opposition to "transgender rights" ("trans" people already have the same the rights as everyone else. What they are demanding is women's rights for men ~ "TWAW".) is mostly led by leftwing feminists in the UK.

 

[Meadmaker]

What about the indication that at the time, the school had no such policy?

It's false. The policy allowing transgender students to use the restroom of their choice was implemented in 2019.

The highly publicized policy change in July, 2021 extended the transgender rights policy to include not just bathrooms, but also locker rooms and sports teams. It also required teachers to refer to students by preferred pronouns.