Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part IV

[Steve]

But Vixen's posts are cited, sourced and properly referenced, unlike other people's posts. She told us herself!

Vixen did provide, upthread, a link and reference to a totally different document. Perhaps Vixen thinks that any old reference is adequate.

 

[Here_to_learn]

But the wiki piece confirms the two men were 'disappeared', and Sweden had its knuckles rapped.

Yes. I don't know of anyone that questioned that. It was you that questioned the statement about them having turned up again. Hence the link.

In the case of the so-called Estonia 'disappeared' there remains a strong suspicion that the senior officers were survivors, [gish gallop removed, all aiming towards a conspiracy theory]

First of all - it's not JAIC that certified who survived and who lived. That was the work of several different agencies, including the Swedish Police, the Finnish police, the Swedish board of National health and welfare among others.

I don't now how the country of Estonia certified the dead of Estonian nationality, so you would have to take that up with them.

And again you mix up the responsibilities of the Prosecution agency with JAIC. Different roles, different responsibilities.

 

[Vixen]

Articles 58-67 deal with:

​

Can you be a bit more specific about which bits of that say that Sweden was disappearing people? Perhaps quote the specific text?




As has already been pointed out, Magna Carta was English law and has never applied to Sweden. Additionally, it was enacted in the 13th century so is unlikely to say anything relevant to your claim that Sweden was disappearing people in the late 20th century. It’s hard to see how you can possibly think it’s relevant unless you’re going full FOTLer on us.

A Treaty has nothing to do with individual case law. Maybe you need to look up the meaning of a treaty?

 

[Andy_Ross]

A Treaty has nothing to do with individual case law. Maybe you need to look up the meaning of a treaty?

You are the one that mentioned a treaty.

 

[Vixen]

Helicopter flights are detailed extensively in the report. Why don't you read it?

Both buoys were recovered, they were not automatic buoys, this had been detailed at great length in this thread

The JAIC archives clearly shows the following (the number at the end is the number of survivors rescued):

Participating helicopters:
Nationality Helicopter Number saved
Finnish Sea rescue helicopter OH-HVG 37
Swedish Air Force helicopter Q 97 15
Finnish Border Guard helicopter OH-HVD 14
Swedish Air Force helicopter Q 99 9
Finnish Border Guard helicopter OH-HVF 8
Finnish Air Force Helicopter X 92 8
Finnish Air Force Helicopter X 42 6
Swedish Air Force helicopter Q 91 6
Swedish Navy helicopter Y 68 6
Swedish Navy helicopter Y 74 6
Swedish Air Force helicopter Q 95 6
Finnish Border Guard helicopter OH-HVH 4
Finnish Air Force helicopter X 62 1
Swedish Navy helicopter Y 65 1
Swedish Navy helicopter Y 64 1
Finnish Air Force Helicopter X 82 -
Swedish Navy helicopter Y 69 -
Swedish Navy helicopter Y 72 -
Swedish Navy helicopter Y 73 -
Swedish Navy helicopter Y 75 -
Swedish Navy helicopter Y 76 -
Swedish Air Force helicopter O 98 -


Helicopter Y64 rescued 1 person.

Kenneth - one of the many Heroes of the Night
… Kenneth Svensson 27 years old. One of the many heroes in connection with the ferry disaster. Kenneth Svensson ... is a rescue man. ... Kenneth Svensson, who was first on site of the rescue men, was lowered under dramatic conditions down to the persons in danger. ... The first rescue attempt failed and he was hauled up again to the helicopter. ... people called for help ... -After only just half a minute I made a new attempt and it went better.
-On a capsized raft sat three frozen and apathic men.
Kenneth Svensson could hardly fit the rescue harness around them. ... Eight humans Kenneth Svensson managed to pick up from the sea.
Then he almost drowned himself.

When the last rescued person was going to be lifted, the rescue line got stuck in a rail and the rescue man Kenneth got hanging below the helicopter and he was close to being smashed against the underside of the helicopter in the strong wind. The helicopter crew understood the situation and quickly cut the wire to Kenneth Svensson. With a big splash he fell back into the water and hurt his face and one side of the body. Meanwhile his own helicopter was forced to return to Huddinge hospital with the injured persons and he must be rescued by another helicopter.

From that helicopter Olle Moberg, also 27 years old, was lowered. He managed to secure a new wire around the hero Kenneth Svensson, who was close to lose his own life in the battle to rescue survivors from the Estonia. ...

(Aftonbladet Wednesday 28 September 1994 ; by Sven-Anders Eriksson)

Ollie Moberg was with Y74, whom JAIC claim did not arrive until about 06:00.

As for the automatically activated EPIRB SOLAS made the recommendation they be mandatory by August 1993, so stop pretending it didn't happen until much later,

The internationally renowned newspaper Helsingin Sanomat confirmed the EPIRB's of Estonia were of the automatically-activated sort as of the time of the accident.

 

[Vixen]

Vixen, how about a citation for the “Treaty 1988 (Criminal Law)” you said supported your claim.

My claim was that enforced disappearance of people is contrary to the Rome Treaty 1988 and Untied Nations Charter of Human Rights 1992.

But then, you knew that.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

My claim was that enforced disappearance of people is contrary to the Rome Treaty 1988 and Untied Nations Charter of Human Rights 1992.

But then, you knew that.

You mean the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court?

 

[Mojo]

A Treaty has nothing to do with individual case law.

You cited it to support your claim that Sweden was disappearing people. Can you quote the words from it that support your claim?

Maybe you need to look up the meaning of a treaty?

Maybe you need to cite the actual treaty that supports your claim.

 

[abaddon]

Citation for the treaty, please.

https://www.icc-cpi.int/resource-library/documents/rs-eng.pdf

Article 7
Crimes against humanity
(i) Enforced disappearance of persons


See also: United Nations Human Rights 1992

Declaration on the Protection of all Persons from Enforced Disappearance

Adopted by General Assembly resolution 47/133 of 18 December 1992

Do read Articles 58 through to 67.

Do also look up the Magna Carta re habeas corpus.

OK, I will. Nope it isn't in articles 58 to 67. Those are all procedural stuff about the court itself

 

[JayUtah]

Understanding the concept of centre of gravity is hardly 'showing off extensive knowledge'.

Except you can't demonstrate a proper understanding of it. You finally allowed someone to teach you about hydrostatic stability. But when you tried to restate it in your own words, you made a laughable mess of it. You're regurgitating some of the words, but you show little if any correct understanding of the concepts.

 

[Steve]

If something actually happened, for example, the incident of the two Finnair pilots spotting a Russian missile going off near their passenger plane in 1987 but it was 'classified' (covered up) until 2014, does that make that 'something' a conspiracy theory?

You honestly cannot see the difference between that and Big Foot?

There is no difference between what you believe re the Estonia and beliefs in Bigfoot. They are equally imaginary.

ETA Belief in Bigfoot is different than your Estonia beliefs in one respect. There seems to be no conspiracy theory re Bigfoot, just a bunch of loons with similar ideas.

 

[Stamuel]

My claim was that enforced disappearance of people is contrary to the Rome Treaty 1988 and Untied Nations Charter of Human Rights 1992.

But then, you knew that.

Just thinking some things through here.

Hiding the Estonia smuggling was so important that Sweden, Estonia, the USA, the UK, and possibly other nations conspired to cover up Russia's murder of 852 people (or maybe 845, with the named nations murdering the remaining seven as part of the coverup).

This coverup required violating treaties and international law to permanently disappear seven senior crew members, who were rescued and recorded as survivors (and somehow doing it from hospitals without anyone from those hospitals ever coming forward about patients whisked away secretly in the night, and without family members reporting hearing from loved ones who survived but then mysteriously disappeared).

Not only that, but they were disappearing their own people, not captured enemies. Which is weird to do if this was a Russian attack. What culpability would the senior crew have for Russian saboteurs planting bombs on the ship (or whatever)?

This kidnapping and probably murder would be required in addition to controlling and subverting several investigations, faking reports, hiding evidence, forming treaties to prevent people from investigating the wreck, and who knows what else.

And all this because these nations were worried that using the MS Estonia for smuggling made them all responsible for Russia's crime.

This is obviously a completely insane conspiracy theory. It is entirely based on working backward from a deranged hatred of the JAIC report and a pathological desire for the JAIC to be part of a criminal conspiracy. Thinking forward, the theory makes no sense.

If these nations wanted to avoid responsibility for the deaths, here is a better way: "We didn't know about the smuggling. It wasn't us." Then they would just have to cover up the evidence that they were connected to the smuggling. This has the benefit of being 1,457,938,585,939,282,494 times easier to do, and it doesn't require helping enemies get away with murdering 852 people. It also doesn't require secretly kidnapping and murdering seven crew members.

After all, plausible deniability is a primary reason to use a passenger ferry rather than military transports. If the smugglers get caught, they aren't with you. They are just rogue criminals trying to profit off the turmoil caused by the collapse of the Soviet Union.

Every piece of "evidence" or "reasoning" is like this. It starts with something that maybe seems kind of weird when you first hear it, but that can't be put into a coherent theory involving a conspiracy.

 

[Mojo]

My claim was that enforced disappearance of people is contrary to the Rome Treaty 1988 and Untied Nations Charter of Human Rights 1992.

But then, you knew that.

OK, let’s just remind ourselves how we got here:

If no attempt was made to identify the bodies on the bridge or ascertain the whereabouts of the Captain, or whether Piht was dead or alive, how did the prosecutor know "the responsible commanding officers did not survive the sinking of the ship"...?

The same way they identified all of the other passengers and crew who did not survive. Lack of a living, breathing body in the subsequent days, weeks, months and years is rather compelling evidence.

How do we know he wasn't taken by the CIA on one of those mysterious cargo flights and put in a secret prison somewhere?

That's what happened two to Egyptian suspected terrorists in Sweden in 2002 IIRC. They were 'disappeared'.

The fact there is a Treaty 1988 (Criminal Law) that forbids the disappearance of suspects, must mean that it had been happening.

Your claim was that Sweden had been disappearing people, and that the “Treaty 1988 (Criminal Law)” was evidence for this.

You haven’t yet provided a citation for this treaty. You have linked to the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court (1998) and cited the Untied [sic] Nations Charter of Human Rights 1992. The only treaty done at Rome in 1988 I have found so far that seems vaguely relevant is the Convention for the Suppression of Unlawful Acts against the Safety of Maritime Navigation. Does any part of that support your claim? Otherwise, can you please cite the particular Rome Treaty of 1988 you are referring to?

 

[Andy_Ross]

The JAIC archives clearly shows the following (the number at the end is the number of survivors rescued):

Participating helicopters:
Nationality Helicopter Number saved
Finnish Sea rescue helicopter OH-HVG 37
Swedish Air Force helicopter Q 97 15
Finnish Border Guard helicopter OH-HVD 14
Swedish Air Force helicopter Q 99 9
Finnish Border Guard helicopter OH-HVF 8
Finnish Air Force Helicopter X 92 8
Finnish Air Force Helicopter X 42 6
Swedish Air Force helicopter Q 91 6
Swedish Navy helicopter Y 68 6
Swedish Navy helicopter Y 74 6
Swedish Air Force helicopter Q 95 6
Finnish Border Guard helicopter OH-HVH 4
Finnish Air Force helicopter X 62 1
Swedish Navy helicopter Y 65 1
Swedish Navy helicopter Y 64 1
Finnish Air Force Helicopter X 82 -
Swedish Navy helicopter Y 69 -
Swedish Navy helicopter Y 72 -
Swedish Navy helicopter Y 73 -
Swedish Navy helicopter Y 75 -
Swedish Navy helicopter Y 76 -
Swedish Air Force helicopter O 98 -


Helicopter Y64 rescued 1 person.

Then the winch broke and the rescue man transferred to a different helicopter. We went through this in detail recently

As for the automatically activated EPIRB SOLAS made the recommendation they be mandatory by August 1993, so stop pretending it didn't happen until much later,

The internationally renowned newspaper Helsingin Sanomat confirmed the EPIRB's of Estonia were of the automatically-activated sort as of the time of the accident.

Automatic buoys were not mandatory until after the Estonia. Those recovered were manual buoys.

Do you want me to repeat the evidence and support we already posted for the helicopter missions and the buoys?

 

[Andy_Ross]

Cats very wisely avoid going to sea.

Every RN ship had a cat as the member of the crew up in to the 1950s as did many merchant ships.

 

[Mojo]

Every RN ship had a cat as the member of the crew up in to the 1950s as did many merchant ships.

I assume the cats were supposed to dispose of vermin.

Larry really needs to pull his finger out.

 

[Vixen]

Every RN ship had a cat as the member of the crew up in to the 1950s as did many merchant ships.

But did they dip their paw in the water?

 

[Vixen]

Just thinking some things through here.

Hiding the Estonia smuggling was so important that Sweden, Estonia, the USA, the UK, and possibly other nations conspired to cover up Russia's murder of 852 people (or maybe 845, with the named nations murdering the remaining seven as part of the coverup).

This coverup required violating treaties and international law to permanently disappear seven senior crew members, who were rescued and recorded as survivors (and somehow doing it from hospitals without anyone from those hospitals ever coming forward about patients whisked away secretly in the night, and without family members reporting hearing from loved ones who survived but then mysteriously disappeared).

Not only that, but they were disappearing their own people, not captured enemies. Which is weird to do if this was a Russian attack. What culpability would the senior crew have for Russian saboteurs planting bombs on the ship (or whatever)?

This kidnapping and probably murder would be required in addition to controlling and subverting several investigations, faking reports, hiding evidence, forming treaties to prevent people from investigating the wreck, and who knows what else.

And all this because these nations were worried that using the MS Estonia for smuggling made them all responsible for Russia's crime.

This is obviously a completely insane conspiracy theory. It is entirely based on working backward from a deranged hatred of the JAIC report and a pathological desire for the JAIC to be part of a criminal conspiracy. Thinking forward, the theory makes no sense.

If these nations wanted to avoid responsibility for the deaths, here is a better way: "We didn't know about the smuggling. It wasn't us." Then they would just have to cover up the evidence that they were connected to the smuggling. This has the benefit of being 1,457,938,585,939,282,494 times easier to do, and it doesn't require helping enemies get away with murdering 852 people. It also doesn't require secretly kidnapping and murdering seven crew members.

After all, plausible deniability is a primary reason to use a passenger ferry rather than military transports. If the smugglers get caught, they aren't with you. They are just rogue criminals trying to profit off the turmoil caused by the collapse of the Soviet Union.

Every piece of "evidence" or "reasoning" is like this. It starts with something that maybe seems kind of weird when you first hear it, but that can't be put into a coherent theory involving a conspiracy.

I am not sure they would have been executed. More likely serving at a US military zone prison and then given a new identity. (Incidentally, they are all Estonian, and some of their relatives have claimed to have received phone calls from their loved one in the early days, which kept being mysteriously suddenly cut off.)


Otherwise, I think your account has the kernel of truth.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

I am not sure they would have been executed. More likely serving at a US military zone prison ...

For what crime?

 

[Vixen]

For what crime?

Presumably terrorist-related, if that was the case.