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Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part IV

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In other words the heel is calculated from the angle of equilibrium...

You're replying to a post about measuring list with a copy and paste about measuring heel.

It looks as if you are trying to browbeat people by showing off your extensive subject knowledge. Maybe you think we haven't all read the thread so far.
 
Do read Articles 58 through to 67.

Do also look up the Magna Carta re habeas corpus.

I know your English is very good, but you horribly overuse this "Do ..." construction. The way you use it is very patronising.

You're welcome.
 
You're replying to a post about measuring list with a copy and paste about measuring heel.

It looks as if you are trying to browbeat people by showing off your extensive subject knowledge. Maybe you think we haven't all read the thread so far.

Understanding the concept of centre of gravity is hardly 'showing off extensive knowledge'. Even a cat knows this instinctively.
 
You're replying to a post about measuring list with a copy and paste about measuring heel.

It looks as if you are trying to browbeat people by showing off your extensive subject knowledge. Maybe you think we haven't all read the thread so far.
There is a difference between a list and a heel. Bet Vixen doesn't know what that is.

Stand by for extensive investigoogling and copypasta.
 
Do read Articles 58 through to 67.

Do also look up the Magna Carta re habeas corpus.


Do stop this passive-aggressive "Do read..." "Do look up...." crap, eh Vixen?

And what the hell does Magna Carta (which is effectively superseded and irrelevant in English law now anyhow...) have to do with Sweden?

You don't know what you're talking about.
 
Understanding the concept of centre of gravity is hardly 'showing off extensive knowledge'. Even a cat knows this instinctively.
You don't even understand that the centre of gravity is a point in space because you repeatedly refer to the centre of gravity being "0 degrees" which makes no sense. Cats apparently have more understanding than you of the subject.

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Vixen said:
So, if we call the centre of gravity in its upright position 0°
How can the centre of gravity be "upright"? It's a zero dimensional point in space. It doesn't have a direction or orientation or angle or whatever. This is just gibberish. And anyone with a vague understanding of basic science can see why it's gibberish, but apparently, you, with your 5 years of physics studies and being an actual bona fide scientist, are incapable of understanding why it makes no sense for a centre of gravity to be "upright" or "0 degrees".
 
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Instead of doing that, why not trying answering some questions about your very bizarre posts about list angles and circles and the other stuff no-one can make head nor tail of.

Seriously, what does "if port is at 45° and starboard at 135°" mean? Port and starboard are 45 degrees and 135 degrees to what?

What does it mean for one side of a ship to be "45 degrees" and the other side of the ship to be "135 degrees"? It's incoherent.


I think I might get Vixen's now-famous

A boat is only a half circle in shape, thus if port is at 45° and starboard at 135°, it is indeed standing perpendicular to the deck and now parallel with the water's surface when turned 90°


laminated so that I can wave it at the screen whenever she next pretends to understand this subject (which will be frequently, and in an absolutist manner). Because those words are cast-iron proof that the person who wrote them hasn't got the first clue about this subject matter, and is simply regurgitating bits of google-fu interspersed with hilarious misinterpretations/misrepresentations.
 
Let's revisit what Mr. Justice Sheen recommends in his The Herald of Free Enterprise investigation findings regarding car ro-ro stability regulations, quoting Naval Architect and Marine Engineer Robert Taggart:

Mr Justice Sheen recommends the following set of alternatives re Regulation 8.6.2:

In other words the heel is calculated from the angle of equilibrium which is where centre of gravity and buoyancy meet and as depicted by the metacentric height, GZ being the righting force in distance of the heel, not from "upright in the water".

Regulation 8 is about stability of ships in damaged condition. The regulation starts out with a requirement that the "intact stability shall be adequate to withstand the flooding of those two adjacent main compartments. " It then goes on to describe what it means by "adequate stability", which will be relative the equilibrium in the damaged situation, that is after flooding of the two main compartments.

That is why Mr Taggert in your quote does the the adding to show the angle from upright.

And the openings that need to be safe in the quote is about openings from the car deck to the rest of the ship.
 
You don't even understand that the centre of gravity is a point in space because you repeatedly refer to the centre of gravity being "0 degrees" which makes no sense. Cats apparently have more understanding than you of the subject.

edit:

How can the centre of gravity be "upright"? It's a zero dimensional point in space. It doesn't have a direction or orientation or angle or whatever. This is just gibberish. And anyone with a vague understanding of basic science can see why it's gibberish, but apparently, you, with your 5 years of physics studies and being a scientist, are incapable of understanding why it makes no sense for a centre of gravity to be "upright" or "0 degrees".


I remember when my school physics teacher had a special night lesson so we could do some astronomy. I'll never forget as he lined up the school's big reflector telescope, then invited me to put my eye to the eyepiece.

"Do you know which star that is, London*?" he asked. "That's Sirius."

"Wow, Sir", I replied. "And if one day we wanted to travel to Sirius, how would we know how to get there and how long it would take?"

"Ah that's the easy part", he said. "Because, you see, Sirius is zero degrees. And so long as it stays upright, we'll have no problem getting there safely".

Halcyon days indeed.



* Teachers at my school exclusively used surnames for pupils... ;)
 
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Understanding the concept of centre of gravity is hardly 'showing off extensive knowledge'. Even a cat knows this instinctively.
My cat has lowered her newspaper and is looking at you over her glasses.

She says a centre of gravity is not an angle, unlike heel or list.
 

But the wiki piece confirms the two men were 'disappeared', and Sweden had its knuckles rapped.

This handling was later condemned and found illegal by the Swedish Parliamentary Ombudsman. The United Nations Human Rights Committee found the deportation of Alzery a breach of Sweden's obligations under the international treaties that Sweden has entered into.
ibid

In the case of the so-called Estonia 'disappeared' there remains a strong suspicion that the senior officers were survivors, that helicopter Y64 did take several to Huddinge hospital in the earliest hours after the accident, returning circa 05:00am with 'a doctor and a nurse from Huddinge Hospital' [JAIC]. However, why would Helicopter Y64 have gone to Huddinge at all in the first place unless to have dropped 'survivors' off? The nearest hospital to the scene of the accident, TYKS (Turku University Teaching Hospital) is a world renowned one with plenty of doctors and nurses ready to help. Early newspaper reports said Helicopter Y64 had a hero pilot who left the Stockholm base just after 2:00am - when at last Stockholm MRCC received the Mayday - and rescued eight or nine people. JAIC mysteriously leave out this early flight and has him arriving circa 5:00 with the medics from Huddinge, Stockholm, and rescuing just one person. The JAIC confabulate him with another helicopter rescuer to maintain the appearance he rescued about six in coalition. JAIC doesn't name any of the survivors associated with the helicopters or the ships, thus probably conscientiously keeping things vague and confusing.

An Interpol Warrant of arrest was put out for Piht, so the authorities certainly believed he had survived.

If none of these survived and the whole thing was a clerical error and a misreporting in the early day newspapers, that's a reasonable assumption. However, given the huge amount of publicity surrounding this issue, how come the JAIC did not offer one iota of explanation for it, given it didn't publish its report for three years. How difficult would it have been to insert a sentence to the effect, 'some senior crew and ship staff were listed as survivors but this was an error arising out of the chaos and confusion' ?


In addition, the two privately chartered US-registered cargo planes that left Arlanda Airport, Stockholm, the same time, with seven unnamed passengers and as paid for by the US Embassy in Stockholm, does appear, on the face of, it to be a 'disappearance' of the 'missing survivors' now presumed dead and would explain why the JAIC decided 'no-one is to blame for the accident'.

Compare and contrast with The Herald of Free Enterprise or the Jan Heweliusz, where several individuals and the ship owners were prosecuted for corporate manslaughter and gross negligence. Yet here we see the very sudden death of circa 1,000 civilians going about their every day lives, and all the JAIC can come up with is, 'It was a design fault in the bow visor locks', something that the well-respected shipbuilders strongly dispute, and whose car ferries were already built to the specifications as recommended by Justice Sheen after the The Herald of Free Enterprise accident in 1987.

Estonia was built as Viking Sally in 1984 and had the 'car ramp gate' - the bow visor - it had the margin waterline at well above the recommended 76mm, with its car deck at 2m above the waterline, it had lights to show the bridge when the car ramp and locks were open or shut, it had the HRU-activated automatically activated EPIRB's as soon as they were available (note how Asser Koivisto's report on the EPIRB's is missing from the JAIC archives and JAIC do not bother explaining their failure other than to say they were 'switched off'), so the claim, 'It was just like The Herald of Free Enterprise accident', is misleading and misconceived.


It is clear that the whole thing has been covered up as a 'classified secret', hence the pathetic JAIC conclusion, as preordained on Day One by then PM Carl Bildt.
 
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It is clear that the whole thing has been covered up as a 'classified secret', hence the pathetic JAIC conclusion, as preordained on Day One by then PM Carl Bildt.

But you are of course in no way claiming that there is any conspiracy to cover this up - correct?
 
Do read Articles 58 through to 67.

Articles 58-67 deal with:
Issuance by the Pre-Trial Chamber of a warrant of arrest or a summons to appear
Arrest proceedings in the custodial State
Initial proceedings before the Court
Confirmation of the charges before trial
THE TRIAL
Place of trial
Trial in the presence of the accused
Functions and powers of the Trial Chamber
Proceedings on an admission of guilt
Presumption of innocence
Rights of the accused


Can you be a bit more specific about which bits of that say that Sweden was disappearing people? Perhaps quote the specific text?

Do also look up the Magna Carta re habeas corpus.


As has already been pointed out, Magna Carta was English law and has never applied to Sweden. Additionally, it was enacted in the 13th century so is unlikely to say anything relevant to your claim that Sweden was disappearing people in the late 20th century. It’s hard to see how you can possibly think it’s relevant unless you’re going full FOTLer on us.
 
But the wiki piece confirms the two men were 'disappeared', and Sweden had its knuckles rapped.

ibid

In the case of the so-called Estonia 'disappeared' there remains a strong suspicion that the senior officers were survivors, that helicopter Y64 did take several to Huddinge hospital in the earliest hours after the accident, returning circa 05:00am with 'a doctor and a nurse from Huddinge Hospital' [JAIC]. However, why would Helicopter Y64 have gone to Huddinge at all in the first place unless to have dropped 'survivors' off? The nearest hospital to the scene of the accident, TYKS (Turku University Teaching Hospital) is a world renowned one with plenty of doctors and nurses ready to help. Early newspaper reports said Helicopter Y64 had a hero pilot who left the Stockholm base just after 2:00am - when at last Stockholm MRCC received the Mayday - and rescued eight or nine people. JAIC mysteriously leave out this early flight and has him arriving circa 5:00 with the medics from Huddinge, Stockholm, and rescuing just one person. The JAIC confabulate him with another helicopter rescuer to maintain the appearance he rescued about six in coalition. JAIC doesn't name any of the survivors associated with the helicopters or the ships, thus probably conscientiously keeping things vague and confusing.

An Interpol Warrant of arrest was put out for Piht, so the authorities certainly believed he had survived.

If none of these survived and the whole thing was a clerical error and a misreporting in the early day newspapers, that's a reasonable assumption. However, given the huge amount of publicity surrounding this issue, how come the JAIC did not offer one iota of explanation for it, given it didn't publish its report for three years. How difficult would it have been to insert a sentence to the effect, 'some senior crew and ship staff were listed as survivors but this was an error arising out of the chaos and confusion' ?


In addition, the two privately chartered US-registered cargo planes that left Arlanda the same with seven unnamed passengers and as paid for by the US Embassy in Stockholm does appear on it face to be a 'disappearance' of the 'missing survivors' now presumed dead and would explain why the JAIC decided 'no-one is to blame for the accident'.

Compare and contrast with The Herald of Free Enterprise or the Jan Heweliusz, where several individuals and the ship owners were prosecuted for corporate manslaughter and gross negligence. Yet here we see the very sudden death of circa 1,000 civilians going about their every day lives, and all the JAIC can come up with is, 'It was a design fault in the bow visor locks', something that the well-respected shipbuilders strongly dispute, and whose car ferries were already built to the specifications as recommended by Justice Sheen after the The Herald of Free Enterprise accident in 1987.

Estonia was built as Viking Sally in 1984 and had the 'car ramp gate' - the bow visor - it had the margin waterline at well above the recommended 76mm, with its car deck at 2m above the waterline, it had lights to show the bridge when the car ramp and locks were open or shut, it had the HRU-activated automatically activated EPIRB's as soon as they were available (note how Asser Koivisto's report on the EPIRB's is missing from the JAIC archives and JAIC do not bother explaining their failure their than to say they were 'switched off'), so the claim 'it was just like The Herald of Free Enterprise accident is misleading and misconceived.


It is clear that the whole thing has been covered up as a 'classified secret', hence the pathetic JAIC conclusion, as preordained on Day One by then PM Carl Bildt.

Helicopter flights are detailed extensively in the report. Why don't you read it?

Both buoys were recovered, they were not automatic buoys, this had been detailed at great length in this thread
 
Vixen, how about a citation for the “Treaty 1988 (Criminal Law)” you said supported your claim.
 
You don't even understand that the centre of gravity is a point in space because you repeatedly refer to the centre of gravity being "0 degrees" which makes no sense. Cats apparently have more understanding than you of the subject.

edit:

How can the centre of gravity be "upright"? It's a zero dimensional point in space. It doesn't have a direction or orientation or angle or whatever. This is just gibberish. And anyone with a vague understanding of basic science can see why it's gibberish, but apparently, you, with your 5 years of physics studies and being an actual bona fide scientist, are incapable of understanding why it makes no sense for a centre of gravity to be "upright" or "0 degrees".

Upright as referenced to the metacentre when in equilibrium (i.e., a perfect balance between the centres of gravity and buoyancy in opposition to each other).
 
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