Discussion: Transwomen are not women (Part 7)

[Meadmaker]

I must be missing something, feel free to quote it.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ed-female-classmate-says-identifies-male.html

The boy's mother accompanied him back to school the following Tuesday. She said it was then that the principal broached another subject - her son's gender identity. He was wearing a skirt at the time of the attack.

'The principal of Stone Bridge was trying to delicately tap dance the sensitive situation,' she told DailyMail.com. 'So I was like, ''Alright, can you please just ask the question you want to ask?''

'That's when he was like, ''Oh, well, what does he identify as?'' she recalled.

'He identifies as male,' she replied.

'Oh, we never knew that,' he told her. 'And I said, ''Did anybody ever ask?''

And I'm sure that there will be some way to overlook the obvious.


Personally, I wish there were some things posted about what students, especially female students, thought about the case, but I haven't seen anything like that.

 

[Manger Douse]

The data shows that trans bathroom panic is largely an invented problem:





https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13178-018-0335-z

You may notice that the entirety of this trans bathroom panic is rooted in salacious anecdotes (if not outright fabrications) because the empirical data to support such a position simply does not exist.

meanwhile, the damage done by these exclusive policies are very well understood and measured.

Also, a more salent figure would be the % of sexual assaults by transwomen full stop, not after a change in legislation that may well have not been well advertised. Do you have it?

 

[Paul2]

I'm really getting tired of your non-answers. I asked you for your genuine thoughts on the issue. And instead of engaging, you dodged and threw out yet more toxic vilification.

Are you CAPABLE of having a discussion like a grown up?

I’m glad you said that and I back you up on that generally. What ST posted in reply did not actually answer your question.

ST, why didn’t you just plainly and directly answer that substantive question?

 

[Emily's Cat]

And I'm sure that there will be some way to overlook the obvious.


Personally, I wish there were some things posted about what students, especially female students, thought about the case, but I haven't seen anything like that.

Shh... don't you know that you cannot listen to females on this topic?

 

[Elaedith]

At least she got to have a career, unlike those young dancers apparently, who went to the press with their stories

She founded the company and owns the name and intellectual property. The company has now folded but she will be launching a new one.

 

[TomB]

No idea how you'd come to that conclusion, since the article is clearly filtered through the perspective of an obviously transphobic parent. Hard to say what the child really feels, though the behavior the mother admits too is pretty extreme.

Interesting that the mother doesn't really explore why the child had suicidal thoughts when first announcing that they might be trans. Surely it couldn't be because this openly transphobic had an extremely negative reaction.

Because it's based on the information available. If I take the information available as true: That she didn't show any times until contact with a specific group. That a member of that group was sending her porn. That that group was encouraging her to make and sell her own porn. I can surmise that her behavior was influenced by the group.

You, on the other hand, assume that since the mother is obviously anti-trans, that she made everything else up: the porn and other elements.

As you say, it's hard to say how the girl actually felt. She may be trans and she may not. But it looks like she hooked up with a group that was pushing her towards some destructive behavior either way. The fact that her mother overreacted does not make that false.

 

[d4m10n]

Also, a more salent figure would be the % of sexual assaults by transwomen full stop, not after a change in legislation that may well have not been well advertised.

ST doesn't actually read the articles they post here.

I do, though, and encourage everyone to do so as well.

Share and enjoy!

 

[TomB]

So... interpretive anecdotes in a magazine that is well known for being VERY biased is something that you consider "evidence" and you give credence to?

That's some next level confirmation bias you've got there.

I think this is the type of thing that ST dismisses as anecdotes. So they shouldn't be treated as data.

 

[Graham2001]

Somone supplying copy to the 'Daily Fail' has hit on the Lia Thomas situation.

A third female swimmer has spoken out to voice her frustrations of competing against UPenn transgender swimmer Lia Thomas saying that it is 'impossible' to beat her.

Thomas broke two national records when she competed in the female races at the Zippy Invitational earlier this month. She previously competed on the UPenn men's swim team for three years before transitioning and undergoing hormone treatments for nearly two and a half years.

A female swimmer from Niagara University who wishes to remain anonymous and competed against Thomas at the Zippy Invitational told DailyMail.com of the intimidation and discouragement she felt racing the transgender athlete.

'Swimming against Lia Thomas was intimidating,' the senior at Niagara University said. 'It was hard going into a race knowing there was no way I was going to get first.'

'I knew I could drop my time but I also knew there was no way I would physically be able to beat her in the race or even catch up to her,' the collegiate athlete said.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...eat-UPenn-transgender-swimmer-Lia-Thomas.html

 

[LondonJohn]

ST doesn't actually read the articles they post here.

I do, though, and encourage everyone to do so as well.

Share and enjoy!

Are you sure you read that article?

Because here is its ultimate conclusion (my bolding/highlighting for emphasis):

The results show that the passage of such nondiscrimination laws is not related to the number or frequency of criminal incidents in such public spaces. Additionally, the results show that reports of privacy and safety violations in public restrooms, locker rooms, and changing rooms were exceedingly rare and much lower than statewide rates of reporting violent crimes more generally. This study provides evidence that fears of increased safety and privacy violations as a result of nondiscrimination laws are not empirically grounded.

Like you, I encourage everyone in this thread to read this report as well. Particularly the conclusions section. Share and enjoy!

 

[d4m10n]

Are you sure you read that article?

Quite sure.

We've gone through some key details upthread.

Have a look at the municipalities with clear GIPANDOs, before and after. Did qualifying criminal incidents go up or down?

 

[LondonJohn]

Quite sure.

We've gone through some key details upthread.

I think the overall conclusion of the report is what carries the actual weight.

 

[TomB]

Are you sure you read that article?

Because here is its ultimate conclusion (my bolding/highlighting for emphasis):




Like you, I encourage everyone in this thread to read this report as well. Particularly the conclusions section. Share and enjoy!

I'd like to encourage people to expand their quotes to include full context:

Conclusion
Opponents of gender identity nondiscrimination laws in public accommodations have largely cited fear of safety and privacy
violations in public restrooms, locker rooms, and changing rooms if such laws are passed, while proponents have argued that
the laws do not increase danger or harm in such spaces. To date, no evidence has been gathered to empirically test the hypothesized effect of these laws. This is the first study to collect public records and analytically compare the safety of public
restrooms, locker rooms, and changing rooms in localities that have gender identity inclusive nondiscrimination laws that
apply to public restrooms and matched localities that do not have such laws. The results show that the passage of such
nondiscrimination laws is not related to the number or frequency of criminal incidents in such public spaces.
Additionally, the results show that reports of privacy and safe- ty violations in public restrooms, locker rooms, and changing
rooms were exceedingly rare and much lower than statewide rates of reporting violent crimes more generally. This study
provides evidence that fears of increased safety and privacy violations as a result of nondiscrimination laws are not
empirically grounded.

In other sections the paper points out that there is limited and inconsistent data and what it had to do to compensate. Basically, I would file this as suggestive, but more work needs to be done and better data needs to be collected.

 

[Elaedith]

I'd like to encourage people to expand their quotes to include full context:


In other sections the paper points out that there is limited and inconsistent data and what it had to do to compensate. Basically, I would file this as suggestive, but more work needs to be done and better data needs to be collected.

Clearly you don't understand. All the matters if whether the paper reaches the 'correct' conclusion, where the correct conclusion is ideologically motivated and therefore predetermined, not whether the data adequately support the conclusion or even whether it is possible to address the question with this methodology.

On the other hand, where extensive argument and evidence does not lead to the ideologically correct conclusion, one must not read it or process it at all except to find a way to reject or misrepresent it, as LJ repeatedly demonstrates.

 

[Meadmaker]

I'd like to encourage people to expand their quotes to include full context:


In other sections the paper points out that there is limited and inconsistent data and what it had to do to compensate. Basically, I would file this as suggestive, but more work needs to be done and better data needs to be collected.

To be fair, I think what it does show is that there has not been a flood of peeping incidents as guys dress up as women in order to enter women's locker rooms or bathrooms. I, for one, am surprised by that. I expected a lot more Darren Merager (Wi-Spa) incidents.

There have been a few such incidents, but not many.

One other cautionary note is to point out something that has been pointed out many times before in this thread. Looking at criminal statistics doesn't tell an accurate story because the whole point of the law was to decriminalize certain acts. If you make something legal (i.e. allowing males to enter a women's locker room), then when it happens it won't show up in the crime statistics. So, a guy who pretends to be trans in order to get in some peeps is caught, and declares himself trans, and the authorities pretty much have to believe him, so it never makes the statistics.

 

[Olmstead]

I think the overall conclusion of the report is what carries the actual weight.

What? It's the data that carries actual weight. The overall conclusion is an interpretation of the data that may or may not be accurate.

Personally, I think that it's impossible to draw conclusions based on the sample size, but that's also just my interpretation.

 

[d4m10n]

I think the overall conclusion of the report is what carries the actual weight.

I'd say (along w/ Olmstead) we should look to the data instead.

Suppose someone had hypothesized that the gradual erosion of a cultural norm in favor of sex-segregation in selected private spaces would result in more of the criminal incidents recorded in this study. Does this study tend to disconfirm that hypothesis?

Personally, I think that it's impossible to draw conclusions based on the sample size, but that's also just my interpretation.

The sample size is even smaller that it may appear at first, since Boston, Cambridge, Chelsea, Marblehead, Milton, Revere, Salem, & Somerville were excluded from the matched pairs analyses, leaving only three GIPANDO municipalities in the data set for matched locality (1).

If I'm reading Table 3 correctly, there was only one qualifying incident over a four year time span in the localities with GIPANDOs, which have a total population of 80,645.

 

[theprestige]

It's pretty common in CT/woo circles for the proponent to cite things they haven't read (often with the tragicomic result that their citation doesn't support or even outright contradicts their claim). Less common is the one where the authors of the cited material may have not read their own work.

 

[Earthborn]

1) Immediately affirm their belief about their gender and start them on puberty blockers and a pathway to surgical intervention. Bear in mind that there's a 20% chance that they are mistaken about their identity, and that this treatment will leave them permanently altered: sterile, with a beard, and with their healthy breast tissue removed or never grown.

Puberty blockers do not cause them to be sterile, have a beard, and because it delays breast growth reduces the potential need for surgery.

2) Completely reject their belief about their gender and refuse to treat them at all. Bear in mind that there's an 80% chance that they're genuinely dysphoric, and there's a 50% chance that they may consider suicide, and a 50% chance of them acting on those thoughts. For the less mathy, that's an 80% x 50% x 50% = 20% chance of them attempting suicide.

Only if you think those chances are completely independent from treatment. I think it is reasonable to assume that therapy that causes someone to feel as if their feelings aren't taking seriously are more likely to commit suicide.

3) Engage in talk therapy with a high awareness of the risk of suicidality, try to get to the root of their identity and make sure it's persistent while they go through a normal puberty, and if they still persist in their gender identity, start them on hormone therapy once their puberty is mostly complete.

Which in your hypothetical means an 80% chance of just prolonging their suffering, and putting them on a path toward surgery that wouldn't have been necessary if they had been given puberty blockers. And yes, often it is necessary to wait until or after puberty to make sure their gender identity if persistent, but lets not pretend like it is some sort of dice roll.

 

[Roboramma]

Because as long as people are using different definitions for "female" that's only half the question and you know it.

I really didn't think we'd get to the point where even JoeMorgue thinks that calling trans women female* is legitimate, but here we are.

*I don't agree with redefining "woman" to refer to gender rather than sex, I don't even think doing so is coherent, but at least it's not as blatantly anti-science as the move to redefine "female". When Boudicca tried it earlier in the thread everyone seemed to see how clearly wrong that was, but now somehow even Joe, who seems to legitimately not be taking a side here, thinks that there's a legitimate debate about the meaning of the word female.