Discussion: Transwomen are not women (Part 7)

[Emily's Cat]

It's kind of a strange remnant of a previous time, sex specific acting awards. Men and women have no innate differences when it comes to acting ability.

You're missing (or handwaving away) the reason those separate awards exist in the first place.

There is no innate difference in acting ability on the basis of sex. But there IS a difference in the number of leading roles available on the basis of sex. There are still many more male leading roles than there are female. And the biggest grossing films are still those that feature a male lead.

Having an award for best actress encourages customers to view more films featuring female characters and also encourages writers and filmmaker to develop female roles to be more representative and less stereotyped.

 

[Emily's Cat]

It's a real shame the UK has a system where people's official gender recognition is not a reliable reflection of people's identity. Perhaps they should fix this.

Alrighty. I'll mark you down for shooshing females concerned about violence against females, and in favor of making their crime stats and victimization levels more equal to those of males by pretending that some males are females so that the entire problem is masked and swept under the rug.


Seriously though, do you actually have any discussion points or arguments to make here? Or is it just invective and insult and grade-school taunting? Do you have any comments at all on the fact that females suffer many times more sexual crimes against them than do males, and that it is incredibly difficult to get males convicted of those crimes? Does that matter to you at all?

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Alrighty. I'll mark you down for shooshing females concerned about violence against females, and in favor of making their crime stats and victimization levels more equal to those of males by pretending that some males are females so that the entire problem is masked and swept under the rug.


Seriously though, do you actually have any discussion points or arguments to make here? Or is it just invective and insult and grade-school taunting? Do you have any comments at all on the fact that females suffer many times more sexual crimes against them than do males, and that it is incredibly difficult to get males convicted of those crimes? Does that matter to you at all?

That's right, it's all a conspiracy by Big Trans to gaslight women.

 

[Emily's Cat]

That's right, it's all a conspiracy by Big Trans to gaslight women.

I'll take your lack of response as confirmation of your lack of care and concern for females.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

I'll take your lack of response as confirmation of your lack of care and concern for females.

Come now, you can do better. It's not that I'm not concerned, i'm actively malicious!

These strawman could use a bit more razzle-dazzle.

 

[d4m10n]

It's being charitable calling Rowling's post "substantive".

I'd say the question of whether sex crimes should be recorded by sex or gender is fairly substantive. I'd say that sex is the far more salient variable. What say you?

 

[TurkeysGhost]

I'd say the question of whether sex crimes should be recorded by sex or gender is fairly substantive. I'd say that sex is the far more salient variable. What say you?

The context of this is that Scottish police treat all people they encounter, victims, witnesses, and suspects, with the same general courtesy of respecting their gender identity. This is in all law enforcement matters, not just sex crimes.

Scotland is far less transphobic on these matters than Britain itself, and seems to be in the process of making officially changing gender for trans people much easier. Seems to me another in a long series of small steps reflecting this change in Scottish public policy.

Seems that the Scottish parliament is on pace to formally pass self-ID into law as soon as 2022.

THE co-operation agreement between the SNP and Scottish Greens contains a pledge to introduce a gender reform bill “in the first year of this parliamentary session”.

The statement would hold the parties to introducing the bill before the end of May 2022.

The controversial Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill was shelved by ministers in April 2020 at the onset of the Covid pandemic.

https://www.thenational.scot/news/19528190.snp-green-deal-bring-gender-reform-bill-first-year-parliament/

Gonna need a bucket for all the TERF tears.

But who needs all that when you have Orwell quotes?

 

[d4m10n]

The context of this is that Scottish police treat all people they encounter, victims, witnesses, and suspects, with the same general courtesy of respecting their gender identity.

Didn't read the article, eh? It's about recording and logging rather than courtesy in personal interactions.

 

[Meadmaker]

I'll take your lack of response as confirmation of your lack of care and concern for females.

Come now, you can do better. It's not that I'm not concerned, i'm actively malicious!

These strawman could use a bit more razzle-dazzle.

While I think the EC's rhetoric is a bit hyperbolic, let's be fair. You do seem to dismiss the concerns of cis-women on a pretty regular basis.

Have you ever acknowledged any situation where the demands of trans rights activists might infringe on the rights of cis-women? If so, have you ever taken the side of cis-women? I think the more commom approach from you is to actually insult the cis-women who feel that their rights are being encroached upon.

In which case, EC's commentary seems like it might be spot on.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

While I think the EC's rhetoric is a bit hyperbolic, let's be fair. You do seem to dismiss the concerns of cis-women on a pretty regular basis.

Have you ever acknowledged any situation where the demands of trans rights activists might infringe on the rights of cis-women? If so, have you ever taken the side of cis-women? I think the more commom approach from you is to actually insult the cis-women who feel that their rights are being encroached upon.

In which case, EC's commentary seems like it might be spot on.

Lest we forget, women, generally speaking, are more likely to be trans-inclusive than men. These complaints of transphobic women are not representative of all cis-women.

I can't think of any occasion I've ever sided with TERFs, no.

 

[Meadmaker]

Lest we forget, women, generally speaking, are more likely to be trans-inclusive than men. These complaints of transphobic women are not representative of all cis-women.

I can't think of any occasion I've ever sided with TERFs, no.

That suggests that if public opinion among women shifted to trans-exclusion, you would support that.


Well, that's a little bit like the mirror image of my position. My position is that if public opinion among women shifts to trans inclusion, I'll support that.

My perception of public opinion on the subject is that much of the trans-inlcusion support among women is based on a misunderstanding about exactly what it means to be transgender. When they understand that plain old biological males who haven't been cut want to use the women's locker room, support shifts dramatically. I suppose more polling data, and more experience with real world situations, is required to determine what women really want.

In the meantime, though, EC's observations about your lack of concern for women seem to have a fairly reasonable basis.

 

[Olmstead]

Lest we forget, women, generally speaking, are more likely to be trans-inclusive than men. These complaints of transphobic women are not representative of all cis-women.

I can't think of any occasion I've ever sided with TERFs, no.

Surely you mean females? But that's kind of sexist, don't you think. Or is it that trans-inclusivity is a feature of the feminine soul, and you did mean women? Are transmen more discriminatory than transwomen, or does the feminine or masculine soul push a person's birth sex towards opposite ends of the spectrum, so that transwomen are less discriminatory than males, but more discriminatory that females and still more discriminatory than transmen?

 

[TurkeysGhost]

That suggests that if public opinion among women shifted to trans-exclusion, you would support that.

No, my point is simply that the repeated claim that trans right is some deliberate attack against women falls a bit flat considering that women tend to be one of the more accepting demographics.

TERFs like to hang themselves on the cross as martyrs for all womanhood, but they are not representative of a broad consensus of women.

 

[Meadmaker]

No, my point is simply that the repeated claim that trans right is some deliberate attack against women falls a bit flat considering that women tend to be one of the more accepting demographics.

TERFs like to hang themselves on the cross as martyrs for all womanhood, but they are not representative of a broad consensus of women.

I think the claim is not so much that it's a deliberate attack, but rather that it's indifferent. The effect is the same. Women's rights are attacked, by people who don't care.

And my point was that the tendency of women to be in the more accepting demographics when it comes to trans inclusion is largely based on flaws in the polling procedures. When women understand that "transgender" includes self ID, the acceptance plummets.

Time will tell how that plays out in the long run. I believe that the tide is turning against trans inclusion based on self ID in sports. As for locker rooms and bathrooms, that's hard to say. My belief is that the support for liberal locker room policy is also largely based on misunderstandings, and that when people undersand self ID most of the support from women will evaporate, but we'll see.

 

[JoeMorgue]

All of this would be so much easier if everyone could just go "Here's how I want to be treated" instead of "Here's how I demand to be defined."

 

[Olmstead]

All of this would be so much easier if everyone could just go "Here's how I want to be treated" instead of "Here's how I demand to be defined."

How does that help? Lia Thomas wants to compete against female swimmers. Now what?

 

[JoeMorgue]

How does that help? Lia Thomas wants to compete against female swimmers. Now what?

Because as long as people are using different definitions for "female" that's only half the question and you know it.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

I think the claim is not so much that it's a deliberate attack, but rather that it's indifferent. The effect is the same. Women's rights are attacked, by people who don't care.

And my point was that the tendency of women to be in the more accepting demographics when it comes to trans inclusion is largely based on flaws in the polling procedures. When women understand that "transgender" includes self ID, the acceptance plummets.

Time will tell how that plays out in the long run. I believe that the tide is turning against trans inclusion based on self ID in sports. As for locker rooms and bathrooms, that's hard to say. My belief is that the support for liberal locker room policy is also largely based on misunderstandings, and that when people undersand self ID most of the support from women will evaporate, but we'll see.

It's about an irreconcilable view of the issue. TERFs would have you believe this is a zero sum scenario, that improvement for trans people unavoidably means a decline for cis-women. I reject this view. In fact, an improvement for trans rights shores up the civil rights of others, including cis-women, leaving everyone better off than before.

 

[Olmstead]

It's about an irreconcilable view of the issue. TERFs would have you believe this is a zero sum scenario, that improvement for trans people unavoidably means a decline for cis-women. I reject this view. In fact, an improvement for trans rights shores up the civil rights of others, including cis-women, leaving everyone better off than before.

How?

Trans rights literally don't translate to any other situation. That's how special they are.

 

[JoeMorgue]

And we're right back to the argument self sustaining only on the back of people pretending what is the point of contention is unknown/complicated.