Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part IV

[JayUtah]

As I said Justice Sheen as a legal bod will only stick to the legal facts found and not indulge in speculation. He said the boat had turned more than 90° for about one minute. It made no further movement...

Agreed.

...as a sand bar ended its capsize...

No. Your source does not say this. Your source explicitly says it cannot determine the reason why the roll ceased, and accepts as a possibility that it stopped there before touching bottom. Your source includes language that explicitly disavows the conclusion you're trying to shoehorn into it.

 

[Andy_Ross]

The edge of the hull touching the water on the starboard or port side is the point it capsizes. At 90° it is level with the surface of the water. Once it is beyond 90° - as Justice Sheen said The Herald of Free Enterprise was before it landed on the sand bar - it is inevitable the vessel will turn over ceteris paribus (i.e., no slow flooding, explosions or hull breaches) as it has a negative arm reach between the centre of gravity and centre of buoyancy.

When it is at 90 degrees the lower side of the hull is already below the water. It is not 'level with the surface'
A ship does not float 'on the surface'. A ship taking on enough water to out it 90 degrees over will already be sitting low in the water

 

[Vixen]

JAIC could only report on the status of the ship according to it's certification in place at the time. These are discussed in the report.

That wasn't the point; the point was Abaddon falsely claimed the JAIC never said it was seaworthy. It did in several places and the JAIC underlines this as being the case at the start of its journey. In other words, only the design fault of the bow visor locks have anything to do with the accident...and the Hand of God vis-a-vis the strong wave.

It makes it clear that the vessel was seaworthy even if you know, and I know, and even Abaddon knows! it is a crock.

 

[JayUtah]

Where does it state that?

Why should it have to? Forensic engineering reports presume general knowledge of the field that pertains to them. That doesn't mean lay knowledge only. It isn't the job of forensic investigators to provide remedial discussion.

This is a public report.

Asked and answered. That it is released to the public does not mean each member of the public is expected to understand it.

 

[JayUtah]

It makes it clear that the vessel was seaworthy even if you know, and I know, and even Abaddon knows! it is a crock.

You've equivocated this same point for months, over and over again. Hoffmeister found significant corrosion and fatigue cracking. Where does that fit into your childlike understanding of seaworthiness?

 

[Andy_Ross]

From the JAIC Report:


5.2 Status of the vessel on departure

On departure from Tallinn on 27 September the ESTONIA was seaworthy and properly manned. There were no outstanding items either from the authorities or from the classification society's surveys. The maintenance standard of the vessel was good as witnessed by various instances.

Which says that the Estonia was certified as compliant by the relevant agencies as being fit to sail.
JAIC themselves had nothing to do with certifying the ship.

We know now that it was in fact not compliant in at least one important feature, JAIC detail this in the report.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Don't try to change the subject, which was Abaddon falsely claimed the JAIC 'never said it was seaworthy'.

Be frank and admit it.

JAIC don’t say it was seaworthy, they are reporting the status of the ship according to the relevant authorities with responsibility for it.
How can they themselves know it’s condition when they committee wasn’t formed until after the sinking?

 

[Andy_Ross]

As I said Justice Sheen as a legal bod will only stick to the legal facts found and not indulge in speculation. He said the boat had turned more than 90° for about one minute. It made no further movement as a sand bar ended its capsize and there it rested, which is fortuitous because otherwise the death toll would have been more like over 400, as capsizing tends to happen rapidly once it goes over the 90°, or even as little as 70° can make it inevitable within minutes. depending on other factors.

That is not what he said at all.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Where does it state that?

This is a public report.

The Swedish Government set up a ministry of information to persuade people to accept it.

It is a report made public. It is not written for the lowest common denominator.

 

[Andy_Ross]

All the certification and reports on condition are available.

We know that the ship was not compliant with collision bulkhead regulations.
We know that an exemption should have been applied for.
This would have restricted the ship to coastal routes of no more than 20nm from land.
Without the certificate it should not have been sailing.

All this is detailed in the report.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Arrow back from my reply to Myriad to the earlier post to which I was responding and you will see it originates with Abbadon scurrilously and mischievously falsely claiming that I claimed to be an expert in all kinds of areas, which I challenged him to prove and he only managed to come up with two, which happened to be true. This proves conclusively the subject was about my claims about myself.

Clear now?

Three. You also claimed to be a scientist. That isn't true, and you're now desperately trying to avoid admitting that you did in fact make that claim.

 

[junkshop]

Arrow back from my reply to Myriad to the earlier post to which I was responding and you will see it originates with Abbadon scurrilously and mischievously falsely claiming that I claimed to be an expert in all kinds of areas, which I challenged him to prove and he only managed to come up with two, which happened to be true. This proves conclusively the subject was about my claims about myself.

Clear now?

Three. You also claimed to be a scientist. That isn't true, and you're now desperately trying to avoid admitting that you did in fact make that claim.

Come on now, play fair, you didn't quote the post Vixen was replying to.

You know, for context.

 

[Reformed Offlian]

When it is at 90 degrees the lower side of the hull is already below the water. It is not 'level with the surface'
A ship does not float 'on the surface'. A ship taking on enough water to out it 90 degrees over will already be sitting low in the water

Also, saying that an outcome is "inevitable" "ceteris paribus" is gibberish.

 

[Mojo]

Note how your source does not then go on to state -- as you inaccurately reported -- that the ship would then continue to roll, but was prevented from doing so by the shallow water. You erroneously believe that's what would happen. But a source that fails to state what you erroneously believe is hardly an authority for that belief.

The passage Vixen quoted to support her claim also says that there “is some reason for thinking that the ship floated more or less on her beam ends for about a minute before finally resting on the sea bed.”

Vixen, what do you understand by the expression “on her beam ends”?

 

[Mojo]

Three. You also claimed to be a scientist. That isn't true, and you're now desperately trying to avoid admitting that you did in fact make that claim.

Do you mean this claim?

I am a scientist.

 

[Andy_Ross]

The passage Vixen quoted to support her claim also says that there “is some reason for thinking that the ship floated more or less on her beam ends for about a minute before finally resting on the sea bed.”

Vixen, what do you understand by the expression “on her beam ends”?

This also seems to give the impression that when the ship goes over it stops sinking for a minute.
It is still sinking, the hull is flooding, as it lists further other more openings are brought below the water and the rate of flooding increases.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

As I said Justice Sheen as a legal bod will only stick to the legal facts found and not indulge in speculation. He said the boat had turned more than 90° for about one minute. It made no further movement as a sand bar ended its capsize and there it rested, which is fortuitous because otherwise the death toll would have been more like over 400, as capsizing tends to happen rapidly once it goes over the 90°, or even as little as 70° can make it inevitable within minutes. depending on other factors.

It's not clear what point you wish to make here but can we take it that you accept that Sheen did not say that if the ship had not grounded it would have have continued to roll over until it was inverted, however convinced you are that it would have done?

 

[abaddon]

Arrow back from my reply to Myriad to the earlier post to which I was responding and you will see it originates with Abbadon scurrilously and mischievously falsely claiming that I claimed to be an expert in all kinds of areas, which I challenged him to prove and he only managed to come up with two, which happened to be true. This proves conclusively the subject was about my claims about myself.

Clear now?

That was two examplars of your claims to expertise, not an exhaustive list. Want more? Let's look at your track record of claims of expertise elsewhere, shall we? After all, if you cannot spell my user name correctly, what are the chances you know anything about ships? chips? wessels?

Cross posting from other threads is generally frowned upon, but if you want, we can go there.

 

[Mojo]

Can you quote the bit of the report where Sheen said the that The Herald of Free Enterprise would have turned over completely but for the sand bar on its port?

Where it says the vessel turned over 90°.

That’s a “no”, then.

 

[Mojo]

As I said Justice Sheen as a legal bod will only stick to the legal facts found and not indulge in speculation. He said the boat had turned more than 90° for about one minute. It made no further movement as a sand bar ended its capsize and there it rested, which is fortuitous because otherwise the death toll would have been more like over 400, as capsizing tends to happen rapidly once it goes over the 90°, or even as little as 70° can make it inevitable within minutes. depending on other factors.

It might just have been chance* that it landed on the sandbar, but the word you are looking for is “fortunate”.


*Caesar adsum iam forte, Pompey ad erat.