Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part IV

[Vixen]

When he said those things, did he know the Estonia had been sailing at full speed into heavy seas until its bow visor broke off and then reacted to the dangerous situation by continuing to sail headlong at full speed into those heavy seas until it was swamped?

No. He didn't.

The interview took place in his retirement and is dated 26.09.2014 06:00.


Do you think lawyer Lehtola knows more than a Baltic sea captain in charge of a 2,500 person cruise ferry? Which one of the two knows about marine dynamics?

 

[Vixen]

Please answer my questions Vixen. I know that seems to be incredibly difficult for you based on the multiple questions of mine you've still not answered.

Remind me what your question is.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Turtles turned on their back are vulnerable and die easily. Turning turtle literally means to be on ones back and open to mishaps. The origin of this phrase is not available although speculated to be in the early 1800's.

Link

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Remind me what your question is.

You have to be kidding. There's no way this isn't an attempt at deflection.

 

[Here_to_learn]

As an aside: why? Is this a thing turtles do, or were once believed to do?

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/turn_turtle

Etymology
Possibly from the fact that turning a turtle and placing it on its back renders it helpless.

 

[JesseCuster]

Vixen makes no claims of her own.

And every claim is from a genuine, bona fide, respected member of their field of expertise.

For example, a wheeled Russian submarine filled with Spetsnaz, crawled along the bottom of the Baltic Sea, only to surface, fire blank torpedos at the Estonia, rescue conspirators from the sinking ship, only to slink away into the sea after they were done.

That's 100% authentic expert's opinion, that is!

 

[Andy_Ross]

As an aside: why? Is this a thing turtles do, or were once believed to do?

When they are on their backs they are stuck.
Like sheep. (we call it 'Rigweltered' around here. There is a beer named after it.

 

[Andy_Ross]

The interview took place in his retirement and is dated 26.09.2014 06:00.


Do you think lawyer Lehtola knows more than a Baltic sea captain in charge of a 2,500 person cruise ferry? Which one of the two knows about marine dynamics?

He knows about captaining a ship. What does he know about how ships sink when their bows fall off?

 

[JesseCuster]

So you see, it is not a conspiracy theory to be sceptical of the JAIC report.

No-one said it was.

However, rambling on about wheeled submarines, minisubs, blank torpedos, limpet mines, WW2 mines, Spetzsnaz commandos, CIA rendition flights, secret trials, nuclear material dissolving the bow locks, detonation charges doing the same thing, trucks full of heroin being pushed through the open bow doors in the middle of a storm, etc. etc., in relation to the sinking of the Estonia, well, that's full bore tinfoil hat conspiracy thinking, that is.

 

[junkshop]

Link

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/turn_turtle

When they are on their backs they are stuck.
Like sheep. (we call it 'Rigweltered' around here. There is a beer named after it.

Thank you all.

Also, I've had that beer. It was good.

 

[Spektator]

Mark Corrigan:

But not if they are in water. Are ships generally turned upside-down on land? AIUI, tortoises, which are land animals, and not turtles, have dire problems with topsy-turviness.

 

[Reformed Offlian]

Turtle = turn upside down.

Does that mean it was floating on its superstructure?

If not, what is a ship that has "turned turtle" floating on?

 

[Andy_Ross]

Thank you all.

Also, I've had that beer. It was good.

It's the same beer as Theakston's 'Old Peculiar', the Theakston brothers fell out when the brewery was sold to Scottish & Newcastle so one of them set up the 'Black Sheep' Brewery. Both are in Masham next door to each other. Standard 'Black Sheep' is the same beer as Theakston's 'XB'. Theakston's is now independent again.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Does that mean it was floating on its superstructure?

If not, what is a ship that has "turned turtle" floating on?

It's turtles all the way down.

 

[Axxman300]

The interview took place in his retirement and is dated 26.09.2014 06:00.


Do you think lawyer Lehtola knows more than a Baltic sea captain in charge of a 2,500 person cruise ferry? Which one of the two knows about marine dynamics?

Based on casual observation after watching dozens of Youtube videos of ferries for this pathetic thread, I say that a lot of ferry captains push their ships right up to the red-line in rough seas to stay on schedule.

The Estonia was sailing too fast for those seas on that night. Period. The evidence for this being a fact is laying on the bottom of the Baltic Sea.

 

[junkshop]

Mark Corrigan:

But not if they are in water. Are ships generally turned upside-down on land? AIUI, tortoises, which are land animals, and not turtles, have dire problems with topsy-turviness.

Hang on, you appear to be in the USA! How do you know the difference between a tortoise and a turtle?

Is everything I 'know' about british vs. american english just lies??!??!

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Mark Corrigan:

But not if they are in water. Are ships generally turned upside-down on land? AIUI, tortoises, which are land animals, and not turtles, have dire problems with topsy-turviness.

Hey I'm not coming up with theories here, I'm just reporting the facts. Properly cited, referenced and verified facts.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Because I'm a hopeless optimist, I am going to post a list of the questions I have yet to receive satisfactory answers for:

Vixen, are you claiming to know more about the physics of how boats sink than JayUtah and the rest of your interlocutors? Is that why you feel you can condescend to us as if we were children who don't know what we are talking about?

Are you a scientist?

Vixen, what is a long term memory?

(The following are not linked because they're from the previous thread)

That is:

1. Only one of my points. I asked you to deal with several.

2. Not what you claimed anyway. You didn't claim Bildt told Clinton stuff, you claimed he sought Clinton's approval for the makeup of the government. So were you lying when you made that claim?

Come on. Back up your actual claim, or retract it, and answer my other points.

Why did you claim the US president was in charge of the CIA? Why do you endlessly make claims about things you know nothing about? Why are you continuing to defend Bjorkman? Why are you lying about what Bjorkman said in the quote I provided? Why do you think that a total incomprehension of basic physics is a personality quirk, and not something that invalidates someone's claims of expertise on engineering?

Stop deflecting, stop trying to motte-and-bailey your way around people asking you to support your claims and stop being a coward. Answer questions.

No, stop deflecting. Explain how they [the JAIC report findings] violate Archimedes please.

No, it (the non existence of nukes) isn't his (Bjorkman's) opinion. Why do you keep pretending that peoples ideas about reality constitute opinions, but only when it is inconvenient to you?

His calculations have previously been shown to fail by people who do understand them.

His grasp of mathematics however is so shaky that even without knowing buoyancy calculations I can be confident they are wrong however. Again, this is the person who thinks that Mass equals weight. His physics skills are less than mine.
I did. I found nothing. I did find lots of information about how Bildt sent Clinton the worlds first email between heads of state, but nothing about your claim.

However that was me doing your homework for you. You made the claim, you back it up. Something you have been unable to do once in this thread.

Stop the condescension. You've clearly shown yourself to be the LEAST capable person in this thread to grasp anything that's being discussed here. Pretending you're better than the rest of us isn't just offensive it's obviously wrong.

Those are a number of the posts of mine you've tried to handwave away or just flat out ignored. Your attempts at deflection are obvious. You just don't want to be pinned down on anything concrete or answer questions that prevent you from Gish galloping.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

The interview took place in his retirement and is dated 26.09.2014 06:00.

Apologies. I've followed the link now. I notice you didn't quote the bit where it says he doesn't believe a bomb was involved. Also what he says is that no single thing should have caused the sinking. Well, that's fair enough, it was a combination of factors.

He also thinks the full cause is not known because Sweden has not raised the wreck "despite its promises". Which promises?

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Do you think lawyer Lehtola knows more than a Baltic sea captain in charge of a 2,500 person cruise ferry? Which one of the two knows about marine dynamics?

I infer that he perhaps knew more about captaining a ship in heavy seas than the Estonia's captain did, because the Silja Europa reduced speed whereas the Estonia ploughed on to its destruction. I don't know what Lehtola would have done.