• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part IV

Status
Not open for further replies.
Vixen said:
Heh. "No true boat floats on its side".

Strangely enough, one of the posters here believes had The Herald of Free Enterprise been out on open sea, it would have sank sideways and landed on its side in exactly the same position on as it did on the sand bank.
Click to expand...

Yes because it flooded in the hull, why would it do anything else?
 
Vixen said:
Did you know that the laws of physics means that things can be predicted to follow a rule? (cf Archimedes)
Click to expand...

But the ship being discussed at the moment had a breach in it's hull and didn't sink. I thought that is what they were supposed to do?
 
Axxman300 said:
Did you know that Ro-Ro ferries are prone to capsizing when their car decks flood?

Did you know that Estonia's sister ship, Diana II, had her bow locks replaced after they failed in calm seas? Her bow locks were identical to Estonia's.

Did you know you can't have it both ways?

Did you know that you cannot claim something is true until it conflicts with your theory, and then claim it is no longer true?

[Solid source: https://www.marinelink.com/news/estonia-disaster-a-bottomless-source-483896 ]
Click to expand...

Look up the MS Jan Heweliusz a car ferry in terrible condition. Like the The Herald of Free Enterprise it capsized with no hull breach. It turned turtle and floated for about five days before sinking, where it still lies at 27m below the surface. The The Herald of Free Enterprise would also have turtled had it been in deeper water.

A Swedish rescuer who went to the rescue scene of the MS_Jan_Heweliusz and also to the Estonia stated he was shocked to see nothing but debris at the Estonia accident scene. Likewise, the captains of Mariella and Europa were both expecting it to be in a similar semi-submerged state.

Diana II did not sink.
 
Last edited:
Vixen said:
Look up the MS Jan Heweliusz a car ferry in terrible condition. Like the The Herald of Free Enterprise it capsized with no hull breach. It turned turtle and floated for about five days before being recovered. The The Herald of Free Enterprise would also have turtled had it been in deeper water.
Click to expand...

Why would it? Did the Jan Heweliusz flood through the open bow in the same way as the HOFE?
Was it of the same construction as the HOFE?

A Swedish rescuer who went to the rescue scene of the MS_Jan_Heweliusz and also to the Estonia stated he was shocked to see nothing but debris at the Estonia accident scene. Likewise, the captains of Mariella and Europa were both expecting it to be in a similar semi-submerged state.

Diana II did not sink.
Click to expand...

Because they didn't know that the bow had come off and the ship had been driven at full speed in to 8m waves.
When it disappeared off the radar it should have given them a clue.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
Why would it? Did the Jan Heweliusz flood through the open bow in the same way as the HOFE?
Was it of the same construction as the HOFE?



Because they didn't know that the bow had come off and the ship had been driven at full speed in to 8m waves.
When it disappeared off the radar it should have given them a clue.
Click to expand...

That is not the view of the On Scene Commander Captain Esa Mäkelä of the Silja Europa in an interview with MTV:

Silja Europa arrived at the scene of the accident fairly quickly, but Mäkelä slowed down the speed of her ship as she approached the scene of the accident, as he thought Estonia was hanging up on the surface.

- By all accounts, that should have been the case. It should have remained floating upside down, which would have been dangerous for us. I had over 2,000 passengers on board myself.

"The cause of the accident is not just the bow visor"

According to Esa Mäkelä, the exact cause of the accident has not been determined, because the Swedish government has not lifted the wreck despite its promises.

There are similar storms in the Baltic Sea every year, so that alone cannot be the explanation for the sinking. Even the detachment of the bow visor would not have been enough to sink Estonia so quickly.

- Apparently all the waterproof doors were open. When the bow gate was detached, water entered the ship, but it should still not have entered the entire ship.

The wind at sea kept getting up all night, and Silja Europa had dropped to 10-11 knots long before the Estonian emergency call. However, Estonia continued at normal speeds despite the storm.

- It left Tallinn an hour and a half after us and it had almost caught us, so it came pretty hard.
Click to expand...
MTV Uutiset

So you see, it is not a conspiracy theory to be sceptical of the JAIC report.
 
Vixen said:
That is not the view of the On Scene Commander Captain Esa Mäkelä of the Silja Europa in an interview with MTV:

MTV Uutiset

So you see, it is not a conspiracy theory to be sceptical of the JAIC report.
Click to expand...

He didn't know the full circumstances at the time, it wasn't established until later that the bow came off.
He says himself that he had slowed but the Estonia kept on at full speed in to the waves.

There are similar storms in the Baltic Sea every year, so that alone cannot be the explanation for the sinking. Even the detachment of the bow visor would not have been enough to sink Estonia so quickly.
Click to expand...

What is his evidence for this?
What are his qualifications for making the claim?
 
Last edited:
Vixen said:
That is not the view of the On Scene Commander Captain Esa Mäkelä of the Silja Europa in an interview with MTV:

MTV Uutiset

So you see, it is not a conspiracy theory to be sceptical of the JAIC report.
Click to expand...
When he said those things, did he know the Estonia had been sailing at full speed into heavy seas until its bow visor broke off and then reacted to the dangerous situation by continuing to sail headlong at full speed into those heavy seas until it was swamped?

No. He didn't.
 
Please answer my questions Vixen. I know that seems to be incredibly difficult for you based on the multiple questions of mine you've still not answered.
 
Vixen said:
Did you know that the laws of physics means that things can be predicted to follow a rule? (cf Archimedes)
Click to expand...

Did you know that a proper understanding of the laws of physics is required before anything can be predicted using them? Archimedes' Law doesn't have the slightest thing to do with ship stability. You have no idea what it means. You just hurl out the poor man's name as if it's a magical incantation that wards off all criticism.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
He didn't know the full circumstances at the time, it wasn't established until later that the bow came off.
He says himself that he had slowed but the Estonia kept on at full speed in to the waves.



What is his evidence for this?
What are his qualifications for making the claim?
Click to expand...

I see he lives in Dragsfjärd. A friend of mine has a summer cottage there, so should I ever bump into the good captain, I'll be sure to ask him.
 
It occurs to me that for more than forty years I have lived in close proximity to turtles. A colony of them lived in the lake just beyond our back yard. In the warm months I saw them daily on my walks along the nature trail on our campus. They densely populated the beaver pond alongside the trail. Many, many times I saw sea turtles as I snorkeled in the Gulf of Mexico and in the Bahamas. While canoeing, I saw swamp tutles, including a snapper the size of a truck wheel, in the Okefenokee. And not a one of them turned upside-down. Maybe a more appropriate description is called for.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom