Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part IV

[LondonJohn]

One of the engineers originally told a Swedish early day newspaper they had been 'up to their knees in water'. This tells you there was an ingress of water into the hull deck.

Passengers on Deck 1 (for example, Reitamm; Ovberg) bolted out to the upper decks as there was water on the floors of their cabins, ahead of Decks 4 and 5. The water was not coming down the stairs but rising from below.

Tell us more about this "hull deck".

LOLOLOL

Your entire body of work in this thread is a pointless joke.

 

[LondonJohn]

Initially, the Rockwater divers counted up to two hundred bodies that could be recovered AIUI that they could see.

The Ethics advisory board was itself a controversial set up.

We've already definitively established that your "AIUI" is not worth the pixels it's written in.

You're going to need reliable, credible evidence if you're going to make claims like this, Vixen. "AIUI" is, on account of ubiquitous precedent, entirely worthless as a bargaining chip in this thread.

 

[Steve]

We've already definitively established that your "AIUI" is not worth the pixels it's written in.

You're going to need reliable, credible evidence if you're going to make claims like this, Vixen. "AIUI" is, on account of ubiquitous precedent, entirely worthless as a bargaining chip in this thread.

Vixen has assured us on more than one occasion that everything she posts in these threads are properly cited, referenced and verified facts. Surely Vixen would never stoop to post her own understandings, opinions, or interpretations of those "facts". Would she?

 

[Mojo]

Vixen has assured us on more than one occasion that everything she posts in these threads are properly cited, referenced and verified facts. Surely Vixen would never stoop to post her own understandings, opinions, or interpretations of those "facts". Would she?

 

[LondonJohn]

The key concept here is that long-term memories begin forming at the same time as short-term memories, but for a period of about two weeks after the remembered event, they remain exceptionally malleable.

Long-term memory doesn't mean memory from the distant past. Changes to long-term memory do not occur only because the subject is "pressured" to remember.

Exactly. There is now a very large body of evidence - from academic experiments as well as real-life events - which is conclusive in proving the malleability and distortion of long-term memory. Without doubt, it happens; and it happens a heck of a lot more than almost any "lay" people can begin to realise (because it instinctively feels like memory must be more-or-less fixed and immutable). Which, of course, is precisely why Loftus' work has been of such value.

We know very well that (for example) people sitting in a comfortable armchair and experiencing a non-traumatic event can, when asked about it 15 minutes later, get even fundamental details of the event wrong. In the case of the Estonia disaster, passengers and crew alike were literally fighting for their very lives. I suggest that few if any of them were even attempting to focus on anything more than getting off the ship and to a position of safety (which is to say: in a liferaft). When one grafts this germane factor onto the general issues around false memory, it's almost a given that the recall of people - as soon as a few hours later, and even given that they'd been medically treated and made warm and comfortable - was prone to fallibility. Even extreme fallibility.

You say you made a careful study of psychology. That study does not seem to have included the basic neurological function of memory and the work of some of its most noted practitioners. Just like your study of physics, you claim to have done quite a lot of it, yet retained little useful information from it.

Yes, that's an odd thing. Anyone who claims to have made a "careful study of psychology" ought to have encountered the whole area of false memory. Very curious.....

 

[Vixen]

For those that haven't seen the discussions around salvage/recovery vs cover/leave I can point out it's not like all survivors/family members agree here.

For example in June 2021 there was an article in Dagens Nyheter were one family member described why he spoke against trying to recover the bodies, and how he described that he was threatened by other groups dues to his standpoint.

At one stage, the article quotes the chairman of a group for survivors/family members that say:


My translation: - It wasn't a threat. The only thing we said to J.L was that we will publish your contact information unless you stop talking about this, so that people can contact you and tell you what's on their mind.

So this is hard subject to discuss. There was disagreement when the decision was made, and there is still disagreement on what is the right thing to do. Regardless of what decisions are taken, people will be upset.

Unfortunately available to subscribers only.

The Swedish authorities assured the relatives there were no bodies seen around the wreck. Yet Jutta Rabe said there were bodies to be seen on the seabed. I get that not all of the victim could be recovered, especially those in difficult to access places that could be hazardous to divers. However, if it was all right to recover persons who died in the sea or on the rafts, I see no difference in bringing up the victims that the Rockwater divers came across.

Obviously, this would have needed to have been done at the time whilst the bodies were intact and in relatively good condition. Now, it wouldn't be practical and probably too upsetting. However, as with the raising of the Vasa, or other mediaeval shipwrecks, for example, The Mary Rose or even the Victorian ones, such as Franklin's expedition to the Northwest Passage, archeologists and historians will almost certainly in the future be examining the wreck from an historical POV, so perhaps better to have retrieved them at the time and give them a decent burial where they truly can lie in eternity undisturbed and in their home town.

 

[Vixen]

Tell us more about this "hull deck".

LOLOLOL

Your entire body of work in this thread is a pointless joke.

Commonly known as Deck 0 and comprises the Engine Room Control, sauna, swimming pool area and 15 watertight bulkheads.

 

[Vixen]

News today of a Scottish cargo ship crashing into a Danish cargo ship, Karin Hoej, causing it to capsize and turtle as it ran over it. The Scottish ship Scotcarrier was contacted by the coastguard as it failed to stop. It was ordered to return to assist the stricken vessel and the two crew members arrested, a Brit and a Croatian, on suspicion of being over the limit in drinking at sea and manslaughter. It was in Swedish waters between Bornholm Island (Denmark) and Ystad. Sadly, one person died and another is missing.

Question: how come the stricken cargo ship Karin Hoej is floating upside down, not on its side and nor did it immediately sink, but is still floating after about 24 hours now?

A distress call was received at around 03:30 local time (02:30 GMT) on Monday, which triggered a major rescue operation which is currently underway.

Jonas Franzen, a spokesman for the Swedish Maritime Authority, told the BBC that the rescue team heard screams coming from the near freezing water.

The Scotsman

 

[Andy_Ross]

News today of a Scottish cargo ship crashing into a Danish cargo ship, Karin Hoej, causing it to capsize and turtle as it ran over it. The Scottish ship Scotcarrier was contacted by the coastguard as it failed to stop. It was ordered to return to assist the stricken vessel and the two crew members arrested, a Brit and a Croatian, on suspicion of being over the limit in drinking at sea and manslaughter. It was in Swedish waters between Bornholm Island (Denmark) and Ystad. Sadly, one person died and another is missing.

Question: how come the stricken cargo ship Karin Hoej is floating upside down, not on its side and nor did it immediately sink, but is still floating after about 24 hours now?

The Scotsman

Because it was hit by a much larger vessel that physically rolled it over. As a result of being physically forced over so quickly doesn’t have a lot of flooding in the hull and isn’t carrying any cargo so the hold has a large buoyancy reserve.

Scot Carrier did not fail to stop. Two of the crew were found to be intoxicated but it is not clear if they were on watch.
Under Swedish law, having a blood alcohol level of 0.02% or more is a criminal offence on the sea as well as on the road, a lower limit than in the UK, where it is 0.05%

 

[Andy_Ross]

Scot Carrier has a deadweight of 4789 tons, is 90 meters long with a beam of 15 meters
Karin Hoej has a deadweight tonnage of 449 tons, a length of 55 meters and beam of 9 meters.

Scot Carrier just rode over it.

Scot Carrier usually carries timber on a regular Baltic run.

 

[Here_to_learn]

Question: how come the stricken cargo ship https://sok.riksarkivet.se/bildvisning/ES009767_00001#?c=&m=&s=&cv=&xywh=-2203,-195,6932,3884 is floating upside down, not on its side and nor did it immediately sink, but is still floating after about 24 hours now?

https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/photos/of/ships/shipid:3861037

As Captain_Swoop said - she was rolled over by the other ship. And if you take a look at the photos of Karin Hoej you can see that there are not much of any sides to float on. I don't think a stability/heel angle curve would show any stable positions other than right side up, and fully overturned.

 

[Here_to_learn]

...so perhaps better to have retrieved them at the time and give them a decent burial where they truly can lie in eternity undisturbed and in their home town.

Perhaps. And that's where opinions differ. The Ethics board came to one conclusion, and their recommendation was followed by the Swedish government. Some survivors and family members agree with this. Others do not.

It was a hard decision to take. Regardless of the decision, there would be criticism.

 

[Mojo]

News today of a Scottish cargo ship crashing into a Danish cargo ship, Karin Hoej, causing it to capsize and turtle as it ran over it. The Scottish ship Scotcarrier was contacted by the coastguard as it failed to stop. It was ordered to return to assist the stricken vessel and the two crew members arrested, a Brit and a Croatian, on suspicion of being over the limit in drinking at sea and manslaughter. It was in Swedish waters between Bornholm Island (Denmark) and Ystad. Sadly, one person died and another is missing.

Question: how come the stricken cargo ship Karin Hoej is floating upside down, not on its side and nor did it immediately sink, but is still floating after about 24 hours now?

The Scotsman

Are you sure it wasn’t the Russians who capsized it, or was it no true Scotsman?

 

[Mojo]

Question: how come the stricken cargo ship Karin Hoej is floating upside down, not on its side and nor did it immediately sink, but is still floating after about 24 hours now?

Perhaps cargo ships are not designed like passenger ferries.

 

[Mojo]

We know there was 'ingress of water in to the hull' in the machinery space. It has huge ventilators, air intakes, exhausts and hatchways that let water in. Why do you think water would be on the lower decks before those above?

I think Vixen might be about to discover gravity.

 

[Here_to_learn]

Scot Carrier did not fail to stop.

This has of course nothing to do with M/S Estonia, but according to current reports in Swedish press, Scot Carrier did not notify JRCC. Instead JRCC was alerted by an emergency transponder from the danish ship, and it was JRCC that contacted Scot Carrier and ordered them to return to the scene.

The AIS track is quite confused, but seem to support that after collision, Scot Carrier turned west again and sped up for a couple of minutes, before turning back.

Regardless, there will be an investigation, and the report is expected in 7-10 months from now.

 

[Mojo]

Question: how come the stricken cargo ship Karin Hoej is floating upside down, not on its side and nor did it immediately sink, but is still floating after about 24 hours now?

You do understand that “turning turtle” is not something that ships are actually designed to do, don’t you?

 

[Andy_Ross]

Also from the pictures it looks like there is a breach in the hull of the capsized ship.
From it's location and the damage around the hole and across the bottom, it looks like the Scot trader literally rolled it right over.
We have been assured that a breach in the hull will make the ship sink quickly and it shouldn't float upside down with a hole like that.

Maybe it goes to show that every sinking is different.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Also from the pictures it looks like there is a large hole in the hull of the capsized ship.

I did wonder if that might have been struck by the larger ship's propeller.

 

[abaddon]

You do understand that “turning turtle” is not something that ships are actually designed to do, don’t you?

Not at all. They have to be designed to turn turtly in order to float on their own superstructadidly.

Or whatever nonsense is on it's way.