New truth effort AE911

[Oystein]

...
Graphic produced by searchers and FDNY personnel of locations where human body fragments were discovered.
The human fragment footprint extends from the westside of West street to Church street on the eastside
and from WTC6 at the North down to Liberty street on the South.
https://youtu.be/11RwCm_OaGc?t=4508

Enhanced graphic of same.
Yellow dots indicate human body fragments and red dots indicate fire department
equipment recovery locations.
https://youtu.be/11RwCm_OaGc?t=4534

Thanks for the evidence that human remains mapped with the rest of the debris. Which of course surprises no one.
Do you understand that this map shows remains on the ground as well es elsewhere?
Do you understand that the towers fell all over the place, wildly outside the footprint - contrary to what "controlled demolitions" look like?

A Forensic coroner ...

Name? Did he have any involvement with the identification of WTC victims?

outlines his opinion of fragmented bodies and condition of flesh and bone fragments recovered scattered about the three-hundred meter diameter envelope surrounding
ground zero.
https://youtu.be/11RwCm_OaGc?t=4447

At 1:14:21 hours, the author and title of a work of science are shown:

Human Identification following the World Trade Center Disasater:
Assessing Management Practices for highly fragmented and commingled Human Remains

by Amy Mundorff​

Amy Mundorff was NYC's full-time forensic anthropologist. For three years, she was tasked with the gruesome work of studying thousands of human remains to identify them.

Did any of the grifters who exploit McIlvaine and that British family care to secure an interview with Mrs. Mundorff? Why not? She is now at the University of Tennessee in Knoxville. She is, by the way, a 9/11 victim two, got injured by the collapse of the South Tower. She has dedicated hew life and her work to helping the living relatives of victims of disaster to cope and find closure. She is a true 9/11 hero - all the ******** responsible for the aptly named "Unspeakable" are not.

Anyway, here is the report this unknown and irrelevant man is reading from:
https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/56373999.pdf
Read it!
For example: While the "Unspeakable" idiots wonder why victims were so fragmented, Mundorff has answers. Page 15:

The aggressive manipulations by heavy machinery, combined with the effects of fire, water and decomposition over time rendered most of the recovered human remains highly fragmented and unrecognizable.

She goes on to review literature on previous disasters where mass identifiation of the deceased was attempted - it's always been difficult, and never unusual that not all remains can be identified following particularly violent events.

Do they present any of that valuable information in "Unspeakable", or is "Unspeakable" actually dedicated to not speaking facts, expertise and reality?

Edited to add 2011 CBS story stating 700 body fragments were discovered on the roofs of the Deutsche Bank
along with "parts of the hijacked plane".


https://newyork.cbslocal.com/2011/01/09/toxic-tower-damaged-on-911-finally-coming-down/

Thanks for providing a bit of evidence underscoring the plausibility of human remains on rooftops stemming from passengers and crew of the planes

 

[MRC_Hans]

Well, seems they never got past argument from incredulity.

Hans

 

[Oystein]

The "Unspeakable" propaganda piece has a few interesting bits of documentary information:

Around 1:06:15, McIlvaine father is holding a sheet of paper with a drawing on it. A little later, at 1:07:33, they show that drawing (in negative - white on black): It appears to be an autopsy drawing of Bobby's body as presented at the morgue. It shows the head above the mouth missing (presence of mouth later enabled corroborating the identity via dental records), the right arm below humerus (upper arm bone) missing - the drawing suggests about half the humerus is missing; multiple "lacerations" (wounds from blunt trauma) to the chest, and an "exposed compound fracture" to the other humerus. It appears that the upper body was impacted with violent force, over most of its area - but no further injuries below the chest - it seems that belly, hip, legs, feet were quite ok!?
McIlvaine believes, falsely, that the fireball explosion shot high-velocity debris, or an explosive pressure wave, or both, at his son to cause thos injuries - but that seems unlikely given that the more fragile abdomen seem not to have been seriously injured nor his legs. A bomb would be more discriminatory, wouldn't it? Unless perhaps there was something shielding the lower body from the impact of flying debris. But if you are walking into the lobby, what obstacle would be shielding your lower body?

At 1:08:00, they show a copy of the "Anthropology Worksheet", where the second line (DM01-119) appears to be about Bobby's "Partial body". We learn that DNA was taken from the muscle, that a Medical Examiner named "Sampson" was working on that body on 9/12, and that the body was identified by "Photo PE".

I had previously assumed that Bobby was found on the morning of 9/13, for the McIlvaine family and his roommate were informed that he is at the morgue on the morning of 9/13. However, the ME had seen Bobby on 9/12. This leaves open a possibility that he was found on 9/11 or 9/12, the ME may have examined him early or late on 9/12.

The paper (PhD thesis, actually) by Amy Mundorff happens to have a sample of such an "Anthropology Worksheet" in Appendix D, and of the Examination form, that includes the generic body drawing, in Appendix B. So we know that's indeed what the forms looked like that the NY Medical Examiners used back then. We learn from the List of Abbreviations that "DM01-" stands for "Disaster Manhattan 2001". Section 5.2.1 (page 107) explains how cases (i.e. pieces of human remains) were numbered: It was decided to prefix them all with this "DM01-", and then number them chronologically, as they came in, starting with 00001. So from this, we learn that Bobby's remains were the 119th case to come to the Medical Examiners Office's attention.
On the same page that contains the entry 119, there is also an entry "3997", which must have come in chronologically later. On the right hand margin, we see a truncated information "AVP-[truncated]".
AVP stands for "Anthropological Verification Project", which Mundorff explains in Section 5.6.1: It (along with the FAR) started in May 2002!

Before those changes, data recording had lots of troubles, e.g. it wasn't recorded for most of the first 5,000 cases, where at GZ the remain had been found (page 121).

The "Anthropology Worksheet" was used in a process called "Final Anthropological Review" (FAR), which focused on identified remains before the remains were released to the families (which happened, in Bobby's case, on 9/15) (page 133).

So, with AVP and FAR not beginning before May 2002, we now know that the "Anthropology Worksheet" shown at 1:08:00, that gives us as the date of the Medical Examination "9/12", cannot have been filled out on 9/12! And so that date is unreliable!


-----------

At 1:05:46 a recording of some emergency personnel, apparently from the early minutes of the 9/11 event:

we got burned victims in one building, one, the lobby. We are West St side

The infamous moment that a fireball blew through the lobby: It injured people in the West St side of the North Tower lobby!
McIlvaine father believes, falsely, that his son was entering the lobby on his way from home to a meeting in the North Tower - which would have taken him via subway to the Cortland St station, up and out onto WTC Plaza - and then entering the North Tower from its East entrance - not the West St side!
McIlvaine believes, falsely, that the fireball was explosive and peppered his son with debris violently - but if his story were right, and Bobby came from the East, he would not have been subject to that fireball to begin with.

 

[beachnut]

According to this Associated Press story from 2007 about a victim's body fragments recovered from the roof
of the Deutsche Bank building rooftop during a subsequent search to ID some of the thousands of unrecovered
missing victims.
https://www.nydailynews.com/news/9-11-victims-id-bones-deutsche-bank-article-1.266195
...
Graphic produced by searchers and FDNY personnel of locations where human body fragments were discovered.
The human fragment footprint extends from the westside of West street to Church street on the eastside
and from WTC6 at the North down to Liberty street on the South.
https://youtu.be/11RwCm_OaGc?t=4508


Enhanced graphic of same.
Yellow dots indicate human body fragments and red dots indicate fire department
equipment recovery locations.
https://youtu.be/11RwCm_OaGc?t=4534


A Forensic coroner outlines his opinion of fragmented bodies and condition
of flesh and bone fragments recovered scattered about the three-hundred meter diameter envelope surrounding
ground zero.
https://youtu.be/11RwCm_OaGc?t=4447


Edited to add 2011 CBS story stating 700 body fragments were discovered on the roofs of the Deutsche Bank
along with "parts of the hijacked plane".
https://newyork.cbslocal.com/2011/01/09/toxic-tower-damaged-on-911-finally-coming-down/

What is your conclusion?

 

[Fonebone]

Thanks for the evidence that human remains mapped with the rest of the debris.

The image of retrieved body parts and fragments was compiled over a period of months and years and superimposed on top
of an image of the WTC complex clean-up work in progress for reference purposes.
https://hosting.photobucket.com/ima...ld(1).png?width=1920&he ight=1080&fit=bounds

Do you understand that this map shows remains on the ground as well es elsewhere?

The image indicates the broadcast of body parts and fragments over an area from West street to Church street and Vesey street to Liberty street.
The discovery of body parts and fragments on the Deutsche Bank roof,
located on the South side of Liberty street, proves the body fragment debris field was larger than the FDNY image indicates.

Do you understand that the towers fell all over the place, wildly outside the footprint - contrary to what "controlled demolitions" look like?

Flap-doodle! Yes the body part/fragment debris field pretty much matches the debris field of the concrete dust and structural steel from the towers
collapse but the LIDAR images reveals the majority of the towers both collapsed into their building footprints.

Name? Did he have any involvement with the identification of WTC victims?

If you're referring to this gentleman I'll let him introduce himself here...
Cyril H Wecht
https://youtu.be/11RwCm_OaGc?t=3999

Pay special note his bonafides and credentials as a Forensic pathologist
and medical legal consultant. This is the same gentleman featured in my
post #90 link...
https://youtu.be/11RwCm_OaGc?t=4447

Mr.Cyril H Wecht may have been hired as a medical/legal consultant to examine the evidence.
...

 

[Robin]

Apparently it is a controlled demolition if material is scattered far and wide and it is also a controlled demolition if material falls in the building's footprint.

 

[beachnut]

The image of retrieved body parts and fragments was compiled over a period of months and years and superimposed on top
of an image of the WTC complex clean-up work in progress for reference purposes.
https://hosting.photobucket.com/ima...ld(1).png?width=1920&he ight=1080&fit=bounds



The image indicates the broadcast of body parts and fragments over an area from West street to Church street and Vesey street to Liberty street.
The discovery of body parts and fragments on the Deutsche Bank roof,
located on the South side of Liberty street, proves the body fragment debris field was larger than the FDNY image indicates.



Flap-doodle! Yes the body part/fragment debris field pretty much matches the debris field of the concrete dust and structural steel from the towers
collapse but the LIDAR images reveals the majority of the towers both collapsed into their building footprints.
[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/363814c71fc8b30cb7.jpg[/qimg]


Mr.Cyril H Wecht may have been hired as a medical/legal consultant to examine the evidence.
...

BTW, if you missed it, the people were killed by cowards on 9/11 by 19 followers of UBL, thus posting the BS of AE911T is dumber than dirt.

Can you debunk 9/11 truth or what? Guess not.

Murdered on 9/11 by 19 failed followers (kind of like the mindless followers of 9/11 truth, terrorists murdered people, 9/11 truth liars/cult murder the truth).

20 years, and you don't seem to know who did it. That is not a sign of convergence on the truth.

AE911T makes money spreading lies. Do you think it is a legit group, or tax scam for the big donors. Who would donate to the scam of lies pushed by AE911T?

 

[smartcooky]

BTW, if you missed it, the people were killed by cowards on 9/11 by 19 followers of UBL, thus posting the BS of AE911T is dumber than dirt.

Can you debunk 9/11 truth or what? Guess not.

Murdered on 9/11 by 19 failed followers (kind of like the mindless followers of 9/11 truth, terrorists murdered people, 9/11 truth liars/cult murder the truth).

20 years, and you don't seem to know who did it. That is not a sign of convergence on the truth.

AE911T makes money spreading lies. Do you think it is a legit group, or tax scam for the big donors. Who would donate to the scam of lies pushed by AE911T?

As is usual, reality follows a narrative, one that clear and unequivocal. The narrative explains who did it, what their motives were, what the lead-up looked like and what happened in the aftermath.

Conspiracy theory, on the other hand, has no narrative. There is not one 9/11 conspiracy theory that explains from start to finish, who they think planned it, and what their motives were, how it was carrid out, and how it is being all covered up. FFS, they can't even agree on what actually happened... planes, no-planes, missiles, thermite, mini-nukes, holograms etc. 9/11 twoofers are clueless about their own ******* theories!

 

[Robin]

The "Unspeakable" propaganda piece has a few interesting bits of documentary information:

Around 1:06:15, McIlvaine father is holding a sheet of paper with a drawing on it. A little later, at 1:07:33, they show that drawing (in negative - white on black): It appears to be an autopsy drawing of Bobby's body as presented at the morgue. It shows the head above the mouth missing (presence of mouth later enabled corroborating the identity via dental records), the right arm below humerus (upper arm bone) missing - the drawing suggests about half the humerus is missing; multiple "lacerations" (wounds from blunt trauma) to the chest, and an "exposed compound fracture" to the other humerus. It appears that the upper body was impacted with violent force, over most of its area - but no further injuries below the chest - it seems that belly, hip, legs, feet were quite ok!?
McIlvaine believes, falsely, that the fireball explosion shot high-velocity debris, or an explosive pressure wave, or both, at his son to cause thos injuries - but that seems unlikely given that the more fragile abdomen seem not to have been seriously injured nor his legs. A bomb would be more discriminatory, wouldn't it? Unless perhaps there was something shielding the lower body from the impact of flying debris. But if you are walking into the lobby, what obstacle would be shielding your lower body?

At 1:08:00, they show a copy of the "Anthropology Worksheet", where the second line (DM01-119) appears to be about Bobby's "Partial body". We learn that DNA was taken from the muscle, that a Medical Examiner named "Sampson" was working on that body on 9/12, and that the body was identified by "Photo PE".

I had previously assumed that Bobby was found on the morning of 9/13, for the McIlvaine family and his roommate were informed that he is at the morgue on the morning of 9/13. However, the ME had seen Bobby on 9/12. This leaves open a possibility that he was found on 9/11 or 9/12, the ME may have examined him early or late on 9/12.

The paper (PhD thesis, actually) by Amy Mundorff happens to have a sample of such an "Anthropology Worksheet" in Appendix D, and of the Examination form, that includes the generic body drawing, in Appendix B. So we know that's indeed what the forms looked like that the NY Medical Examiners used back then. We learn from the List of Abbreviations that "DM01-" stands for "Disaster Manhattan 2001". Section 5.2.1 (page 107) explains how cases (i.e. pieces of human remains) were numbered: It was decided to prefix them all with this "DM01-", and then number them chronologically, as they came in, starting with 00001. So from this, we learn that Bobby's remains were the 119th case to come to the Medical Examiners Office's attention.
On the same page that contains the entry 119, there is also an entry "3997", which must have come in chronologically later. On the right hand margin, we see a truncated information "AVP-[truncated]".
AVP stands for "Anthropological Verification Project", which Mundorff explains in Section 5.6.1: It (along with the FAR) started in May 2002!

Before those changes, data recording had lots of troubles, e.g. it wasn't recorded for most of the first 5,000 cases, where at GZ the remain had been found (page 121).

The "Anthropology Worksheet" was used in a process called "Final Anthropological Review" (FAR), which focused on identified remains before the remains were released to the families (which happened, in Bobby's case, on 9/15) (page 133).

So, with AVP and FAR not beginning before May 2002, we now know that the "Anthropology Worksheet" shown at 1:08:00, that gives us as the date of the Medical Examination "9/12", cannot have been filled out on 9/12! And so that date is unreliable!


-----------

At 1:05:46 a recording of some emergency personnel, apparently from the early minutes of the 9/11 event:

The infamous moment that a fireball blew through the lobby: It injured people in the West St side of the North Tower lobby!
McIlvaine father believes, falsely, that his son was entering the lobby on his way from home to a meeting in the North Tower - which would have taken him via subway to the Cortland St station, up and out onto WTC Plaza - and then entering the North Tower from its East entrance - not the West St side!
McIlvaine believes, falsely, that the fireball was explosive and peppered his son with debris violently - but if his story were right, and Bobby came from the East, he would not have been subject to that fireball to begin with.

I came across this account by security 2ic George Tabeek of seeing someone decapitated by falling rubble from the north tower just after the impact and before the plane hit the south tower:

Then a noise … jet engines bursting from nowhere.

"I turned … all I see is something large come out of the building," Tabeek says, his hands starting to move and tremble again.

In the split-second before he also heard an earthquake-like crash echoing out from the north tower.

"Things were coming down out of the building as big as refrigerators. It was unbelievable," he says. "So now I start running. And the other guys were running. And I don’t know where they died. I think Joe died later in (the south tower). Where Bobby (Lynch) died, I’m not sure."

Tabeek is shifting in his chair. His head turns slowly, left and right.

"I remember seeing someone get decapitated in front of me as I was running. Yeah, something fell right onto the person. It was awful."

https://www.nj.com/news/2011/09/his_job_was_to_keep_the_world.html

That might have been McIlvraine he saw, or if not then it certainly shows that there was a danger in being in the plaza from falling debris.

 

[Axxman300]

Flap-doodle! Yes the body part/fragment debris field pretty much matches the debris field of the concrete dust and structural steel from the towers
collapse but the LIDAR images reveals the majority of the towers both collapsed into their building footprints.
[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/363814c71fc8b30cb7.jpg[/qimg]

How can any reasonable person look at the LIDAR image and conclude the buildings fell in their footprint? Are you blind?

Mr.Cyril H Wecht may have been hired as a medical/legal consultant to examine the evidence.
...

Dr. Wecht has never met a high-profile forensic case he didn't screw up.

 

[smartcooky]

How can any reasonable person look at the LIDAR image and conclude the buildings fell in their footprint? Are you blind?

I think I see your problem!

 

[bknight]

I think I see your problem!

Yes Mr. NoPlanes, Fonebone, who won't answer my question "where did the planes that were missing from the airlines manifest go, if they were not destroyed fly into the Towers, Pentagon, Pa. field?"

 

[Robin]

How do the truthers not realise that it is a false narrative they are pushing?

How many times do we get the Tyrone Johnson/Jimmy Grillo interview given as support for the "bomb in the lobby" lie?

Although they never specify which building they are referring to in that interview, Johnson and Grillo were, of course, in the Marriott Hotel lobby and the incident they are describing is the damage that hotel sustained when the south tower collapsed, they just didn't know at the time that the collapse was due to the south tower collapsing.

So, unless truthers are claiming that the Marriott Hotel was a controlled demolition too, then obviously the interview does not support any "bomb" theory.

Truthers like this interview because Grillo is very obviously recently badly injured by the event they are describing.

But either truthers knew it was the Marriott Hotel lobby that Johnson and Grillo are talking about and didn't say, or else they have never wondered which building the firefighers are talking about or when the incident they described happened.

 

[Oystein]

As is usual, reality follows a narrative, one that clear and unequivocal. The narrative explains who did it, what their motives were, what the lead-up looked like and what happened in the aftermath.

Conspiracy theory, on the other hand, has no narrative. There is not one 9/11 conspiracy theory that explains from start to finish, who they think planned it, and what their motives were, how it was carrid out, and how it is being all covered up. FFS, they can't even agree on what actually happened... planes, no-planes, missiles, thermite, mini-nukes, holograms etc. 9/11 twoofers are clueless about their own ******* theories!

Quoted for truth.

 

[Robin]

I notice that the AEtwoof people are acting all shocked and surprised that anyone would think that they are conspiracy theorists.

Meanwhile they are using their website to publicise the conspiracy theory that JFK was murdered by the CIA.

 

[JSanderO]

Conspiracy theorist is definitely a "dirty word" and not something someone wants to be tagged with. Believers always contend they have the truth or are assembling the truth. Heck... the 9/11 nuts call themselves 911truth and nothing could be further from the truth. They ARE effectively no different from Scientology... Flat Earthers... and "anit vaxxers" which a term for the collection of those who think Covid is a deep state project.
The problem is that these people don't use the scientific method and don't apply established science to their world view. And their always bereft of hard evidence.... and heavy on speculation.
The bigger problem is that so many are so uneducated and naive and fall for this nonsense... in light of evidence that these conspiracies are groundless fantasy.

 

[carlitos]

I notice that the AEtwoof people are acting all shocked and surprised that anyone would think that they are conspiracy theorists.

Meanwhile they are using their website to publicise the conspiracy theory that JFK was murdered by the CIA.

The "not conspiracy theorists" have a 3-hour podcast on 911 Free Fall (sic) dot com that is some serious infighting drama. If only it were still cycling weather, I could maybe give it a listen. Maybe.

In this special three-hour edition of 9/11 Free Fall, host Andy Steele is joined by Bernie Suarez and Craig McKee to reveal a year-long investigation that began with the discovery of a fake Facebook profile, purporting to be Bernie, created by troll Nelson Martins (aka Dj Thermal Detonator). A close examination of this reveals a sinister campaign against the 9/11 Truth Movement and key members of 9/11 organizations that appears to be aimed at pushing the movement closer and closer towards accepting the official story.


Conclusive evidence is presented, including a full confession at the end, that not only is Martins impersonating Bernie and using his identity to misrepresent his views, but fellow trolls Adam Fitzgerald and Ed Brotherton appear to be in on the ruse. The episode reveals the efforts of Martins and Fitzgerald to badger the movement into ignoring the controlled demolition evidence and accepting the official story of the Pentagon event while they smear key individuals at the Lawyer’s Committee for 9/11 Inquiry and AE911Truth.


In a shocking turn of events, Fitzgerald states in a video that a prominent AE911Truth staff member (and three others) “threatened” and “doxxed” David Chandler, although Fitzgerald has to admit he has no evidence to back this up. Given an opportunity to dispel these false accusations by making clear he was never threatened or doxxed by these people, Chandler flatly refuses to comment…

 

[JSanderO]

hahahahaha How cool!

 

[Fonebone]

Dr. Wecht has never met a high-profile forensic case he didn't screw up.

This is what the man you insult states about himself.
http://www.cyrilwecht.com/about.php

This is what "encyclopedia.com" to say about the man you insult...
https://www.encyclopedia.com/science/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/wecht-dr-cyril-h


Now, you state your bonofides that allows you to feel qualified to insult this man on a public forum - OK ?

How can any reasonable person look at the LIDAR image and conclude the buildings fell in their footprint? Are you blind?

Let's explore the subject and find out...
Reason ...the power of the mind to think, understand, and form judgments by a process of logic.
Reasonable ...Capable of reasoning; rational thinking.
We can start right here...

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=7378798#post7378798

 

[Cosmic Yak]

Let's explore the subject and find out...
Reason ...the power of the mind to think, understand, and form judgments by a process of logic.
Reasonable ...Capable of reasoning; rational thinking.
We can start right here...

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=7378798#post7378798

That link amused me for two reasons:
Firstly, it shows how you have been making the same claim, using the same image, for 10 years now, and have ignored every single refutation thereof.
I also find it comical that you have never been able to format your posts properly. You started off mangling them, and have continued ever since. Are you standing by your claim that it's ISF itself that is deliberately messing up your formatting?