Discussion: Transwomen are not women (Part 7)

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SuburbanTurkey said:
Given that they are likely entirely imagined people and this incident probably never happened, I'm happy to defer to the author's description.
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She's lying. Or she's an anecdote. Or she's a TERF so who cares? Or...any excuse needed to dismiss the actual concerns of women.
 
Earthborn said:
If the sports organisation has decided that a person fits the criteria to be eligible to participate, why complain when they win?
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Because the organizers aren't the arbiters of what's fun for competitors and spectators. It's possible for them to make decisions that are detrimental to the sport, and it's reasonable for those involved in the sport to complain when they do.
 
TomB said:
What makes them likely imagined?

I will agree with your point that you were using the author's terminology. We have no indication that they were transgender. They may have been putting together a costume or something.

But I think it's a legitimate occurrence and (other than where she changed) an understandably disconcerting event that should be expected as norms change. In other words, I see why she was bothered and don't blame her. But I also don't have a problem with the guys here. Basically, there are no bad guys here.
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The author that tries to use this misunderstanding on her part to advance some anti-trans narrative is a bad guy.
 
Meadmaker said:
She's lying. Or she's an anecdote. Or she's a TERF so who cares? Or...any excuse needed to dismiss the actual concerns of women.
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To be honest, lying is the more flattering interpretation. It's hard to imagine anyone actually being this obtuse.
 
Lia Thomas breaks more records on the UPenn women's swim team

From Outsports (snipped for the relevant info):
Trans college swimmer Lia Thomas set two conference records this weekend

500-yard freestyle: ...meet record, Akron’s pool record, the Penn school record she broke two weeks ago, and the Ivy League record.

200-yard freestyle: pool and meet record, lowered her existing school and league marks, and put herself in the entry list at 200 free for the NCAA Championships.
From the start, Thomas set the pace and dared her opposition to try the match it, just as she did in the 500. She swam with efficiency and power to continually stretch the lead to nearly seven seconds to win at 1:41.93.
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1650-yard freestyle... meet, pool and Penn school record... winning the race by 38 seconds with a time of 15:59.71.
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Considering last season was canceled and athletes tend to 'taper' times and get better as the season moves on...expect a lot more records broken! Lia is above the middle of the pack compared to the male competitors and would have qualified for the finals in those races this past weekend.

eg, Lia's times in the 200 and 500 would have qualified for the men's "B" team finals. None of the women came within range of the "C" team qualifying times.
 
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SuburbanTurkey said:
The author that tries to use this misunderstanding on her part to advance some anti-trans narrative is a bad guy.
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Sorry, does the story mention any trans people?

She describes the people in question as "clearly presenting as men."

Other than that, she was describing a situation that made her uncomfortable and somewhat confusing policies of a store trying to adapt to change.

Is she not allowed to describe her experiences?
Is she not allowed to describe the fact that store policies are changing?
Is she not allowed to point out that those changes might make some people uncomfortable?

I know you like to dismiss any situation where changes in your desired direction might create issues for someone else, but maybe think about a better way for stored to handle this.

You know, look for a solution instead of cheering on your team.

How about this: Changing rooms (for trying on clothes) serve an area, not a gender or a sex. In recognition that this differs from previous custom, this would be clearly posted and the policy explained to staff. Changing cubicles should be fitted with locking doors for privacy, not curtains. That way common areas are clearly not private and individual stalls are clearly private.

This works at both our local Goodwill stores as well as a number of clothing stores around town.

See? Acknowledge rather than ridicule an issue (even if you don't think it's a big issue) and propose a solution that may work for everyone. Even if others disagree, at least you have a starting place for an actual productive conversation.

We aren't lawmakers so we don't get direct votes on policy, but we do elect those lawmakers. If the discourse becomes about solving a problem rather that backing teams, maybe we can get actual productive lawmakers who will reflect that. You know, instead of just being part of the team.
 
TomB said:
Sorry, does the story mention any trans people?

She describes the people in question as "clearly presenting as men."

Other than that, she was describing a situation that made her uncomfortable and somewhat confusing policies of a store trying to adapt to change.

Is she not allowed to describe her experiences?
Is she not allowed to describe the fact that store policies are changing?
Is she not allowed to point out that those changes might make some people uncomfortable?

I know you like to dismiss any situation where changes in your desired direction might create issues for someone else, but maybe think about a better way for stored to handle this.

You know, look for a solution instead of cheering on your team.

How about this: Changing rooms (for trying on clothes) serve an area, not a gender or a sex. In recognition that this differs from previous custom, this would be clearly posted and the policy explained to staff. Changing cubicles should be fitted with locking doors for privacy, not curtains. That way common areas are clearly not private and individual stalls are clearly private.

This works at both our local Goodwill stores as well as a number of clothing stores around town.

See? Acknowledge rather than ridicule an issue (even if you don't think it's a big issue) and propose a solution that may work for everyone. Even if others disagree, at least you have a starting place for an actual productive conversation.

We aren't lawmakers so we don't get direct votes on policy, but we do elect those lawmakers. If the discourse becomes about solving a problem rather that backing teams, maybe we can get actual productive lawmakers who will reflect that. You know, instead of just being part of the team.
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You have to wonder under what under context this would be considered newsworthy. Seems pretty obvious this is some idiotic proxy for the broader anti-trans movement in the UK, but perhaps you think there is some other reason this was considered an interesting enough anecdote to print.

Really begging the question that this is some problem that needs to be solved. Are people actually disrobing outside of changing rooms in clothing stores? I very much doubt it. Is this is public policy problem, or a "this author is strange (or making up stories)" problem?

Perhaps things are different in the UK, but stripping off your shirt in public rather than waiting for a changing room to become available would be considered pretty trashy behavior here in the US, and you might find yourself getting chastised by staff.
 
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Sherkeu said:
Lia Thomas breaks more records on the UPenn women's swim team

From Outsports (snipped for the relevant info):
Trans college swimmer Lia Thomas set two conference records this weekend



Considering last season was canceled and athletes tend to 'taper' times and get better as the season moves on...expect a lot more records broken! Lia is above the middle of the pack compared to the male competitors and would have qualified for the finals in those races this past weekend.

eg, Lia's times in the 200 and 500 would have qualified for the men's "B" team finals. None of the women came within range of the "C" team qualifying times.
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The inconsideration and selfishness of Lia is breathtaking.
 
Meadmaker said:
Yeah. Who even brought it into this thread? Hey, wait. It was. ... What the ?
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It's interesting to see how the outrage sausage gets made. Trash right wing tabloids have to keep the steady stream of gender panic going, even if it means you have to print a few duds like this from time to time.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
You have to wonder under what under context this would be considered newsworthy.
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But anyway...

It's a human interest story. It's basically telling the readership that today, unlike five years ago (according to the article) there might be men in the women's changing room, and the staff and management of stores are having a difficult time trying to figure out what to do.

It's not a headline story. It's an opinion columnist.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
You have to wonder under what under context this would be considered newsworthy. Seems pretty obvious this is some idiotic proxy for the broader anti-trans movement in the UK, but perhaps you think there is some other reason this was considered an interesting enough anecdote to print.

Really begging the question that this is some problem that needs to be solved. Are people actually disrobing outside of changing rooms in clothing stores? I very much doubt it. Is this is public policy problem, or a "this author is strange (or making up stories)" problem?

Perhaps things are different in the UK, but stripping off your shirt in public rather than waiting for a changing room to become available would be considered pretty trashy behavior here in the US, and you might find yourself getting chastised by staff.
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You are conflating an incidental oddity with the crux of the story. Her discomfort did not begin with her changing in the common area.

Read the story again. You will find that it begins with her using the changing room in a normal manner and finding that males presenting as men were also using the "women's" changing area. There are no people described as trans in the story. Would she have had an issue if they were trans-men (presenting as female)? Maybe. Maybe not. But that isn't the issue described here.

The issue that is described is that males presenting as men (cis-men, by definition) are able to use the changing rooms labeled as "women's" as long as they are carrying women's clothing.

What this means is that there is no "women's" changing room. There is now a unisex changing room. This is a change, and it is not one that most people expect. And not everyone thinks it's a good thing.

The story that is written addresses that issue. You've extended it out to be a complaint about trans women using the women's area. Might she complain about that? Maybe. It's not unlikely. But that is neither the story nor the complaint outlined in this story.

Question: Do trans women want cis males sharing the women's changing areas? Or do they also want only women (cis or trans) in there? The answer is significant. If the answer is yes to the first, then the argument is not for access to women's spaces, but for the abolishment of sexed/gendered spaces in favor of unisex spaces. If the answer is yes to the second, then trans women wouldn't want cis men in there either.
 
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SuburbanTurkey said:
It's interesting to see how the outrage sausage gets made.
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Can't say I agree with this. We've got a number of policy changes up for debate here (e.g. changing sexed spaces into gendered spaces or unisex/all-gender spaces) and no amount of outrage sausage is going to help us reason our way into workable accommodations.

TomB said:
Do trans women want cis males sharing the women's changing areas?
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Boudicca90 said no, IIRC.
 
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TomB said:
You are conflating an incidental oddity with the crux of the story. Her discomfort did not begin with her changing in the common area.

Read the story again. You will find that it begins with her using the changing room in a normal manner and finding that males presenting as men were also using the "women's" changing area. There are no people described as trans in the story. Would she have had an issue if they were trans-men (presenting as female)? Maybe. Maybe not. But that isn't the issue described here.

The issue that is described is that males presenting as men (cis-men, by definition) are able to use the changing rooms labeled as "women's" as long as they are carrying women's clothing.

What this means is that there is no "women's" changing room. There is now a unisex changing room. This is a change, and it is not one that most people expect. And not everyone thinks it's a good thing.

The story that is written addresses that issue. You've extended it out to be a complaint about trans women using the women's area. Might she complain about that? Maybe. It's not unlikely. But that is neither the story nor the complaint outlined in this story.

Question: Do trans women want cis males sharing the women's changing areas? Or do they also want only women (cis or trans) in there? The answer is significant. If the answer is yes to the first, then the argument is not for access to women's spaces, but for the abolishment of sexed/gendered spaces in favor of unisex spaces. If the answer is yes to the second, then trans women wouldn't want cis men in there either.
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I'm not sure about this. I rather think the crux of the issue is that activists say no transition of any kind (including presentation) is necessary to be trans. Therefore there is no way to distinguish a transwoman from any other male, and it follows logically that segregating areas by self-identified gender means that nobody can ever object to any male being in the women's area.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
It's interesting to see how the outrage sausage gets made. Trash right wing tabloids have to keep the steady stream of gender panic going, even if it means you have to print a few duds like this from time to time.
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Are you even capable of making a post that is NOT dripping with venomous denigration and rhetorical appeals to emotion?
 
In reply to a recent news article:

https://twitter.com/dickydickypand1/status/1468138719886688261


4d627c9bf3ac5b128599a58c700cabc1.jpg
 
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Elaedith said:
I'm not sure about this. I rather think the crux of the issue is that activists say no transition of any kind (including presentation) is necessary to be trans. Therefore there is no way to distinguish a transwoman from any other male, and it follows logically that segregating areas by self-identified gender means that nobody can ever object to any male being in the women's area.
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The story talks bout neither transgender people nor self-id (other than a brief mention of "that's how they identify). She doesn't actually delve into that issue directly.

But as to the highlight, I would go a little further and say that it follows that self-id, at least without some sort of expectation of presentation transition, results in there effectively no longer being a women's area.

Which is why I say that the argument for self-id is really an argument for unisex spaces. (Especially if you account for gender-fluid people.)
 
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