Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part III

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Vixen said:
From Safety Legislation Shipboard Operations
By H I Lavery Google Books.

This was the position up to July 1991: one EPIRB on each side of the ship. (So much for Captain_Swoop's erroneous claim they had to be together.)

Notandum: the SOLAS regulations were updated November 1991 to take effect by 1 Aug 1993 to be 'float free' models.
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That linked document describes float free beacons but not automatic activation of the beacons. It refers to another 1991 document ( https://wwwcdn.imo.org/localresourc...MOResolutions/AssemblyDocuments/A.695(17).pdf ) which lists recommendations for the performance of the beacons and that says they ought to automatically activate, but when and how does a recommendation become a requirement? I don't know what the process is. I suspect I am not alone.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
They are not 'tuned' they are sealed units. The users can't do anything to them apart from turn them on and off.



They can not be 'tuned' they are sealed units. There is nothing to tune unless you are the manufacturer or the service centre.



There is a delay between switching on and switching off on the old buoys to allow them to be tested without transmitting or to allow them to be turned off if they are accidentally activated.



If there are automatic buoys in the product range then only automatic release systems are made for that range so that an automatic buoys can't be put in to a manual frame by mistake.



There was no communications blackout. Distress signals were received by ships and shore stations in the area expected for the transmitter used which was a low powered hand held unit.



There was nothing suspicious. The transmissions were received and acted on quickly.

The buoys were not activated, they were found floating in the sea in working order.



There were no communications problems caused by any tampering or interference.



What does that have to do with anything?
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Helsingin Sanomat which is the most respected broadsheet in Finland writes:

Estonian hätäpoijuista oli unohtunut viritys

Autolautta Estonian kaksi hätäpoijua eivät lähettäneet signaalia pelastajille, koska niitä ei ollut viritetty laivalla. Hätäpoijut pulpahtivat pinnalle asianmukaisesti laivan upotessa.


Turman kansainvälinen tutkimuskomissio on selvittänyt Viron rannikolle ajautuneiden hätäpoijujen toimintaa. Poijujen akut olivat täydessä varauksessa, mutta ne eivät voineet lähettää mitään virittämättöminä, kertoo komission jäsen Kari Lehtola .
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HS *

The Estonian emergency buoys' tuning had been forgotten

The two emergency buoys from the car ferry Estonia did not send a signal to the rescuers because they had not been tuned on board. Emergency buoys burst to the surface properly as the ship sank.


The Turma International Commission of Inquiry has investigated the activities of the emergency buoys that have drifted off the coast of Estonia. The buoys' batteries were fully charged, but they could not send anything untuned, says Commissioner Kari Lehtola.
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google translate

The stuff about their not being 'tuned' is definitely the correct English translation of the word

virittää = tune, tune up, set, pitch, prime, cock (verb, which does not mean anything else)

viritys = tuned (past tense)

virtaa = wave (as in water or electricity)

ei ollut viritetty = had not been tuned

Definitely has an electronic meaning, quite different from 'to switch on' or to 'turn on', or 'put on', in which case, we just say päälle (for example, the light, clothes, 'on top of').

The article continues:

However, during the installation phase, the activation of the buoys was forgotten: the protective cover must be opened and turned over to the coupling head. The activation of the emergency buoy was one of the tasks of the radio electricians in Estonia, of which there were two on board.
The investigation is still ongoing, but the Commission has consulted the radio operator, Asser Koivisto, a member of the Commission's expert, said. The purpose of the emergency buoy is to send the location of the sunken ship and to tell the searchers the name of the ship. According to Koivisto's assessment, the silence of the buoys did not have a major effect on the rescue operations themselves, as the buoys do not float to the surface until the ship has sunk.
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ibid

As Koivisto had first-hand access to the evidence, together with the specifications for Estonia I am not sure what you are hoping to achieve by calling him untruthful. Maybe have the grace to accept the Estonia did not have 'manual operation only' epirbs even though Koivisto and Rockwater make clear they were hydrostatically activated, SOLAS makes clear that free-float (automatically activated) EPIRB's were mandatory per edict Nov 1991 by 1 Aug 1993 and nowhere does JAIC indicate Estonia breached the rules in this respect.

End of.

You can have the last word.
 
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Vixen said:
https://wwwcdn.imo.org/localresourc...MOResolutions/AssemblyDocuments/A.696(17).pdf

RESOLUTION A.696,(17)
adopted on 6 November 1991
TYPE APPROVAL OF SATELLITE EMERGENCY POSITION-INDICATING RADIO
BEACONS (EPIRBs) OPERATING IN THE COSPAS-SARSAT SYSTEM
THE ASSEMBLY,
RECALLING Article 15(j) of the Convention on the International Maritime
Organization concerning the functions of the Assembly in relation to
regulations and guidelines concerning maritime safety,
NOTING that the Conference of Contracting Governments to the
International Convention for the Safety of Life at Sea, 1974 (SOLAS),
on the global maritime distress and safety system (GMDSS Conference, 1988)
adopted regulation IV/7.1.6 of the 1988 SOLAS amendments, applicable not
later than 1 August 1993, requiring the carriage of a float-free satellite
EPIRB on every ship as part of the global maritime distress and safety system,

You can have the last word because I am not sure what level of proof you require beyond SOLAS itself.
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That was a recommendation. I guess you did not read the whole thing, problem being that we all can. And you don't seem to like the fact we can read.

And why did you chuck in a random quote tag. Why?
 
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Jack by the hedge said:
Make your mind up. You say they don't blame any crew and in your next breath insinuate it's suspicious they don't apportion particular actions to particular officers.
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What I said was JAIC should have made clear who was master of the vessel as of the time of the accident.

Isn't that the first thing to look at?


If Andresson was not there - and he didn't send the mayday - then who was? This is important information in a public inquiry.

If he was not there, then why not?


When the Rockwater divers went to the bridge and counted the bodies, why where these important bodies not identified?
 
virittää = tune, tune up, set, pitch, prime, cock (verb, which does not mean anything else)
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Set, prime or cock would be perfectly acceptable English terms for switching the beacon on to transmit. If you think it's wrong and it does literally mean "tune" I suggest you try asking a technically-minded Finn about the nuance of the usage, because there is nothing the user can do to these buoys which equates to the English meaning of tuning a radio device.
 
LondonJohn said:
In any event.... this is all somewhat moot to a debate about the Estonia disaster.

Because firstly, we know for certain that the two EPIRBs aboard the Estonia that night were of the "manual activation only" type.

And the reason why we know this for certain is because the JAIC Report explicitly points this out. The JAIC's facts and conclusions on this matter have never been challenged on anything more than spurious CT-agenda grounds.

Secondly (and as has been pointed out so many times here already), wrt the Estonia disaster in particular, the non-activation of the EPIRBs was actually of no material importance/significance anyhow in terms of emergency assistance/rescue efforts. The nearby ships and the rescue authorities already had a reliable, accurate fix on the Estonia's position as quickly as (or maybe even more quickly than) the EPIRBs would have reported the position had they indeed been (manually) activated before the ship sank.
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Tut, tut, tut. Stop fibbing.
 
Jack by the hedge said:
That linked document describes float free beacons but not automatic activation of the beacons. It refers to another 1991 document ( https://wwwcdn.imo.org/localresourc...MOResolutions/AssemblyDocuments/A.695(17).pdf ) which lists recommendations for the performance of the beacons and that says they ought to automatically activate, but when and how does a recommendation become a requirement? I don't know what the process is. I suspect I am not alone.
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For passenger ships they would be mandatory. I think cargo ships have a slightly lesser requirement.
 
Vixen said:
Tut, tut, tut. Stop fibbing.
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More than one source I've seen in this thread says you're wrong about the buoys being automatically activated. The circumstantial evidence of how the entire marine industry didn't react to a type-approved safety device not activating in emergency says you are wrong about the buoys being automatically activated.
 
Vixen said:
Helsingin Sanomat which is the most respected broadsheet in Finland writes:

HS *

google translate

The stuff about their not being 'tuned' is definitely the correct English translation of the word

virittää = tune, tune up, set, pitch, prime, cock (verb, which does not mean anything else)

viritys = tuned (past tense)

virtaa = wave (as in water or electricity)

ei ollut viritetty = had not been tuned

Definitely has an electronic meaning, quite different from 'to switch on' or to 'turn on', or 'put on', in which case, we just say päälle (for example, the light, clothes, 'on top of').

The article continues:

ibid

As Koivisto had first-hand access to the evidence, together with the specifications for Estonia I am not sure what you are hoping to achieve by calling him untruthful. Maybe have the grace to accept the Estonia did not have 'manual operation only' epirbs even though Koivisto and Rockwater make clear they were hydrostatically activated, SOLAS makes clear that free-float (automatically activated) EPIRB's were mandatory per edict Nov 1991 by 1 Aug 1993 and nowhere does JAIC indicate Estonia breached the rules in this respect.

End of.

You can have the last word.
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That is utter bollocks from whatever backwater finnish rag you found. There is no manual tuning of EPIRBs. Why you glommed onto that notion is anyone's guess. Only a factory or authorised service centre can do that. It is not a user function or task. Your own documents that you cite actually tell you that. You are actually citing documents that flat out state you are wrong.

And that flat out tells me that you have not read them in the first place.
 
Jack by the hedge said:
Were the divers tasked with identifying bodies? Who defined their mission tasks?
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AIUI The divers counted X number of bodies (IIRC this was around the 200 mark). They took about 19 hours of video footage, of which only about 2.5 hours have ever been released (one of the complaints of the Estonians is that they were denied access to the full tape). One report claims they took footage of the face of each victim, presumably for identification purposes.

Now, it was deemed imperative the divers reclaim an attaché case from one of the cabins. This was the cabin of Alexander Voronin. Some believe they mixed up his cabin with that of Captain Piht's by juxtaposition of one of the cabin numbers. In any case, there is footage of the diver finding said cabin, entering, locating the attaché/suitcase, reading out the name on the label by spelling each letter in turn, (V-O-R-O-N-I-N, which can be heard on tape) and sending it up to the surface.

If it was important to find the attaché case of an arms trader - which Voronin was - then why was that more important than finding out the ID of those on the bridge. Of course, they know the ID of those on the bridge - why wouldn't they? - but came to a decision to withhold this information from the public, the JAIC or both. Classified, in effect.
 
I only asked who gave the divers their instructions. I didn't ask you to rehash all the conspiracist hearsay about what they did do.
 
Jack by the hedge said:
I only asked who gave the divers their instructions. I didn't ask you to rehash all the conspiracist hearsay about what they did do.
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The divers were outsourced by the Swedish government.

Rockwater-Smit-Tak were an American-Norwegian (or was it Dutch) firm who quoted the highest price when it came to tender. The divers had teams of three, some of whom were from the UK, which is why you can hear flat northern vowels and an Irish brogue on the tape.
 
Vixen, it appears some source tells you the divers photographed faces of the bodies they found. If that's not what you wanted them to do to identify the bodies, what would you have had them do in addition?
 
Vixen said:
https://wwwcdn.imo.org/localresourc...MOResolutions/AssemblyDocuments/A.696(17).pdf

RESOLUTION A.696,(17)
adopted on 6 November 1991
TYPE APPROVAL OF SATELLITE EMERGENCY POSITION-INDICATING RADIO
BEACONS (EPIRBs) OPERATING IN THE COSPAS-SARSAT SYSTEM
THE ASSEMBLY,
RECALLING Article 15(j) of the Convention on the International Maritime
Organization concerning the functions of the Assembly in relation to
regulations and guidelines concerning maritime safety,
NOTING that the Conference of Contracting Governments to the
International Convention for the Safety of Life at Sea, 1974 (SOLAS),
on the global maritime distress and safety system (GMDSS Conference, 1988)
adopted regulation IV/7.1.6 of the 1988 SOLAS amendments, applicable not
later than 1 August 1993, requiring the carriage of a float-free satellite
EPIRB on every ship as part of the global maritime distress and safety system,

You can have the last word because I am not sure what level of proof you require beyond SOLAS itself.
Click to expand...

Float Free is not automatic activation.

That was not made a requirement by SOLAS until after the Estonia sinking.
 
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