Discussion: Transwomen are not women (Part 7)

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JoeMorgue said:
54 pages into the 7th continuation of just the most recent version of this thread and I am again asking what I'm supposed to do if I don't treat the sexes differently in the first place.
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So what pronouns do you use for everyone? As clearly to treat them the same you must use the same pronoun for everyone otherwise you would be treating them differently.
 
ponderingturtle said:
And an abnormally high level of testosterone in and of itself isn't enough to qualify as a DSD? This seems to argue that they vary and are elevated in female athletes in general and can be high for a large variety of causes.

This does not seem to limit it to DSD's but all women. See

"the IAAF recently formulated new regulations and defined a maximum testosterone level of 5.0 nmol/L for eligibility in the female classification of middle distance track disciplines. The Court of Arbitration for Sport approved the IAAF's regulations on 1 May 2019. "

https://www.ese-hormones.org/media/1882/femaleathletes_hirschberg_pr_final.pdf

So we are back to the sole criteria being hormone level regardless of cause.

As for definitions if they work they work, if they do not they do not. Kind of like how 9 planets is not a tenable number of planets for our solar system no matter how much people like Pluto and hate Ceres.
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Some DSDs cause high testosterone levels. Polycystic ovary syndrome does as well. PCOS is not usually considered a DSD - and only affects females. Yes, we term them females (the clue is the word 'ovary'). So no, we do not define the sexes by hormone levels. & the TWs we're generally talking about here are not males with DSDs that make them superficially appear female. We've been over all this before.
 
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ponderingturtle said:
So what pronouns do you use for everyone? As clearly to treat them the same you must use the same pronoun for everyone otherwise you would be treating them differently.
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If this discussion were actually about language, it'd have ended 6 threads ago with a collective shrug.
 
Louden Wilde said:
Nah, they're transwomen. I'm continuing to go with adult female Homo sapiens for 'women'
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Like how we have real Americans and African Americans. It is important to stress their minority status. Clearly when someone is just referring to americans they are not including african americans and there is nothing at all discriminatory about that.
 
ponderingturtle said:
So what pronouns do you use for everyone? As clearly to treat them the same you must use the same pronoun for everyone otherwise you would be treating them differently.
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Pronouns are not a functional difference. They are just words. They don't mean anything. Gender pronouns aren't even a thing in a lot of languages.

It's no different then how I'll still call a woman Ms/Miss/Missus based on her marital status if it means that much to them despite THAT making no differences to me either.

Again every allowance make just so we aren't being dicks for no reasons can't be thrown back in our faces.

I will address a transperson as their preferred gender because I'm not a sad little pathetic waste of humanity who's only goal in life is "How big of an ass can I technically get away with being."
 
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JoeMorgue said:
So transwomen are in a constant state of quantum flux, both women and not women, both the exact same category and a special category, all at the same time.

Clear as mud.
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Not at all, see Women is the super set and has subsets of cis and trans women.

Kind of like how you can have Men and Straight, Gay, or Bi Men.

Or do you not think of gay men as real men, a common historic belief and one many use biology to support.
 
Olmstead said:
Well, if you're a heterosexual man who would be attracted to transwomen throughout your life, then you think transwomen are women. If you wouldn't be attracted to them, then you don't think transwomen are women.

Since we can't just change who we're sexually attracted to, the question of whether transwomen are women, etc. is a completely personal matter that cannot be affected by anything anyone else thinks.

C’est la vie.
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And even the same person, you being all hot for some trap until you find out they are not a real woman, then of course you have to beat them for making you sexually attracted to someone who disgusts you.

It is like finding out someone is a trump voter, you were still attracted to them but their behavior disgusts you.
 
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Louden Wilde said:
Some DSDs cause high testosterone levels. Polycystic ovary syndrome does as well. PCOS is not usually considered a DSD - and only affects females. Yes, we term them females (the clue is the word 'ovary'). So no, we do not define the sexes by hormone levels. & the TWs we're generally talking about here are not males with DSDs that make them superficially appear female. We've been over all this before.
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And the only thing sport uses is hormone level not cause of the hormone level see my cite. So if PCOS causes an over 5.0 level it needs to be treated just like a DSD that causes a level over 5.0. The number is all that matters not the cause. So clearly if they are over that they are no longer a woman regardless of cause, at least for sports.
 
ponderingturtle said:
Like how we have real Americans and African Americans. It is important to stress their minority status. Clearly when someone is just referring to americans they are not including african americans and there is nothing at all discriminatory about that.
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No, it's nothing like that. African-Americans are a subset of Americans (i.e. Americans with some amount of proximal African ancestry). Transwomen are not a subset of (adult) female people (AKA women).
 
Louden Wilde said:
No, it's nothing like that. African-Americans are a subset of Americans (i.e. Americans with some amount of proximal African ancestry). Transwomen are not a subset of (adult) female people (AKA women).
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Except when they are. Then aren't. Then are again.
 
ponderingturtle said:
What, we normalize hormones in women to promote fairness, why shouldn't we look for abnormal hormones in men and do the same? Why is one promoting fairness and the other some crazy thing?
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That's not what happened. We looked at the fact that women can't compete with men in sports. We decided that women should have the opportunity to compete in sports. We created competitions that would exist if there were no men in order to allow women to compete in sports.

In other words, male sports are just human sports.

Female sports are (human without male) sports.

That way, the two categories are equal from a relative perspective.
 
ponderingturtle said:
And the only thing sport uses is hormone level not cause of the hormone level see my cite. So if PCOS causes an over 5.0 level it needs to be treated just like a DSD that causes a level over 5.0. The number is all that matters not the cause. So clearly if they are over that they are no longer a woman regardless of cause, at least for sports.
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No, current T levels are not all that matters. Indeed, an advantage that TW have vs females in sports is their developmental exposure to androgens (T & DHT) - particularly puberty. I am not - and I no one I know of - is saying that females with PCOS are not women - please see my previous posts.
 
JoeMorgue said:
Except when they are. Then aren't. Then are again.
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Or how you have to know if someone is trans or not to know if you are sexually attracted to them, you sexual attraction to them before finding out that is both sexual attraction and not being sexually attracted to them as well.
 
Olmstead said:
That's not what happened. We looked at the fact that women can't compete with men in sports. We decided that women should have the opportunity to compete in sports. We created competitions that would exist if there were no men in order to allow women to compete in sports.

In other words, male sports are just human sports.

Female sports are (human without male) sports.

That way, the two categories are equal from a relative perspective.
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And of course only some women are able to compete, those with the right hormone levels.
 
ponderingturtle said:
And even the same person, you being all hot for some trap until you find out they are not a real woman, then of course you have to beat them for making you sexually attracted to someone who disgusts you.

It is like finding out someone is a trump voter, you were still attracted to them but their behavior disgusts you.
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I wouldn't be upset, since I'm not an idiot, but no, I likely wouldn't be attracted to them anymore after finding out, just as I wouldn't be attracted to a male cross-dresser after finding out.

And no, I can't just control that.
 
ponderingturtle said:
And of course only some women are able to compete, those with the right hormone levels.
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Sometimes you just have to subject women to an array of incredibly invasive and intimate medical examinations to prove they count as a real woman. You know, to protect them.

Any chick accused to having too broad shoulders or other manly features will have to subject themselves to a vagina inspection and a blood draw. Have to protect modesty and all that.
 
The transgender closest is far more transparent than the gay closet, and the gay closet was always waaaaay more transparent then we acted like it was.

The "closet" was always more about plausible deniability than anything else.

Very, very few people are actually shocked when anyone comes out.
 
Louden Wilde said:
No, current T levels are not all that matters. Indeed, an advantage that TW have vs females in sports is their developmental exposure to androgens (T & DHT) - particularly puberty. I am not - and I no one I know of - is saying that females with PCOS are not women - please see my previous posts.
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That goes against what I found please show that is the case and the European Society of Endocrinology was wrong.

"Levels in healthy men are in the range 7.7 to 29.4 nmol/L and 0 to 1.7 nmol/L in healthy women, so for fairness and considering the over-representation of women with naturally higher levels in sport, the IAAF recently formulated new regulations and defined a maximum testosterone level of 5.0 nmol/L for eligibility in the female classification of middle distance track disciplines. The Court of Arbitration for Sport approved the IAAF's regulations on 1 May 2019. "

https://www.ese-hormones.org/media/1882/femaleathletes_hirschberg_pr_final.pdf

Nothing about that level needs to be caused by a specific list of causes and if the level is caused by other ones it gets a pass. If that is truly the case please show me the regulation, that levels greater than 5.0 nmol/L are allowed provided one does not have a DSD.
 
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