Discussion: Transwomen are not women (Part 7)

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Meadmaker said:
I wish it were a side issue.

I think it's actually the core issue.
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But it is important to constantly remind them of their status as other and failing to be real blanks. Just like we need to maintain the distinction between real Americans and African Americans. The constant message of not belonging is vital to keeping these minorities in their proper place.
 
"Is self identification the only requirement?"
"Of course not, don't be silly."
"So what are the other requirements?"
Silence
20 GOTO 10 - Full Fringe Reset
 
ponderingturtle said:
She was never assigned male sex, clearly she does not meet the physical criteria of a male being having a penis so she is a woman.

She is a woman by all the categories people here are demanding. All they have released is that her testosterone levels are unusually high, and to compete she would need to take drugs. That is the entirety of the justification. Two other runners were also banned from the Olympics for exactly that reason.

Though I guess you could label her freak and put her outside the categories of male and female.
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:rolleyes: People are not male or female because of what they are "assigned"
The rules that are being applied to Semenya are to those with DSDs - and 5αR2D fits Semenya to a T. In fact, 5αR2D is a male-specific DSD- females with the mutation have normal reproductive function.

And again, the broad issue we are talking about here are not about those DSDs.
 
ponderingturtle said:
But it is important to constantly remind them of their status as other and failing to be real blanks. Just like we need to maintain the distinction between real Americans and African Americans. The constant message of not belonging is vital to keeping these minorities in their proper place.
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Disingenuous comparison.

TW will never be regarded as females because they are not. Even if you force people to repeat the mantra, lesbians and (especially) heterosexual men will never broadly regard them that way.
 
ponderingturtle said:
Exactly we need to drug all athletes to maintain fair levels of agility and prevent excessive natural talent. Oddly for some reason this only applies to women, no one cares about fairness in men's sports. Or they would be for banning sufficiently abnormal individuals like Michael Phelps. They clearly need to have some drugs to mitigate their unusual biological advantages, well if one cared about consistency in logic, something that repeatedly gets ignored.
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Your response is stupid.
 
Meadmaker said:
I wish it were a side issue.

I think it's actually the core issue.
Click to expand...


So if society replaced self-identification with some form of "tested" identification....

....how do you imagine that those tests would be able to differentiate between (for want of better words) a) people with "genuine" transgender identity and b) people with "false" or "deviously tricked" transgender identity? And how would people who'd passed the test be able to show that they'd passed? Perhaps a little certificate?


(I'm going to be charitable and assume you believe that there are at least some people with what might be described in this context as "genuine" transgender identity.....)
 
54 pages into the 7th continuation of just the most recent version of this thread and I am again asking what I'm supposed to do if I don't treat the sexes differently in the first place.
 
Louden Wilde said:
Disingenuous comparison.
TW will never be regarded as females because they are not. Even if you force people to repeat the mantra, lesbians and (especially) heterosexual men will never broadly regard them that way.
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But they're women.


(For the sake of full disclosure: I believe that transgender people should be able to participate in sport in the category which corresponds with their trans gender - eg transwomen in women's sport - except for at elite and/or professional/semi-professional level.)
 
JoeMorgue said:
54 pages into the 7th continuation of just the most recent version of this thread and I am again asking what I'm supposed to do if I don't treat the sexes differently in the first place.
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We're talking about gender, not (biological) sex. Seems like you haven't learned much at all from all the pages of this thread so far.
 
LondonJohn said:
We're talking about gender, not (biological) sex. Seems like you haven't learned much at all from all the pages of this thread so far.
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Fine. You treat the genders differently. I do not.

Cue the "Oh....errr..... stammer... I mean gender roles." routine.
 
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I'm be damned if I can find either the nobility or the point in "I treat the sexes the same, but the genders differently."
 
LondonJohn said:
So if society replaced self-identification with some form of "tested" identification....

....how do you imagine that those tests would be able to differentiate between (for want of better words) a) people with "genuine" transgender identity and b) people with "false" or "deviously tricked" transgender identity? And how would people who'd passed the test be able to show that they'd passed? Perhaps a little certificate?


(I'm going to be charitable and assume you believe that there are at least some people with what might be described in this context as "genuine" transgender identity.....)
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As I said earlier, I'm not going to try and write legislation spelling out in exact detail every corner case, and nice people won't use that as an excuse to hurl insults.

I think in the most common cases of controversy, medical treatment should be required. As I put it in a recent post, if you can make a woman pregnant, shower with the boys.

And the rules have to vary with circumstances. Using a public restroom on an interstate highway isn't the same situation as using a high school locker room every school day. Again, I'm not going to write a law treatise describing exact details. I think the principles are clear enough.

And yes, a "little" certificate would be good.

I wonder why the "little"?
 
LondonJohn said:
But they're women.


(For the sake of full disclosure: I believe that transgender people should be able to participate in sport in the category which corresponds with their trans gender - eg transwomen in women's sport - except for at elite and/or professional/semi-professional level.)
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Nah, they're transwomen. I'm continuing to go with adult female Homo sapiens for 'women'
 
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So transwomen are in a constant state of quantum flux, both women and not women, both the exact same category and a special category, all at the same time.

Clear as mud.
 
Louden Wilde said:
:rolleyes: People are not male or female because of what they are "assigned"
The rules that are being applied to Semenya are to those with DSDs - and 5αR2D fits Semenya to a T. In fact, 5αR2D is a male-specific DSD- females with the mutation have normal reproductive function.

And again, the broad issue we are talking about here are not about those DSDs.
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And an abnormally high level of testosterone in and of itself isn't enough to qualify as a DSD? This seems to argue that they vary and are elevated in female athletes in general and can be high for a large variety of causes.

This does not seem to limit it to DSD's but all women. See

"the IAAF recently formulated new regulations and defined a maximum testosterone level of 5.0 nmol/L for eligibility in the female classification of middle distance track disciplines. The Court of Arbitration for Sport approved the IAAF's regulations on 1 May 2019. "

https://www.ese-hormones.org/media/1882/femaleathletes_hirschberg_pr_final.pdf

So we are back to the sole criteria being hormone level regardless of cause.

As for definitions if they work they work, if they do not they do not. Kind of like how 9 planets is not a tenable number of planets for our solar system no matter how much people like Pluto and hate Ceres.
 
Louden Wilde said:
Disingenuous comparison.

TW will never be regarded as females because they are not. Even if you force people to repeat the mantra, lesbians and (especially) heterosexual men will never broadly regard them that way.
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Just like people with poly cystic ovary syndrome will never be regarded as females either because it can cause testosterone levels high enough to disqualify them in sports. So not a woman.
 
JoeMorgue said:
54 pages into the 7th continuation of just the most recent version of this thread and I am again asking what I'm supposed to do if I don't treat the sexes differently in the first place.
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Well, if you're a heterosexual man who would be attracted to transwomen throughout your life, then you think transwomen are women. If you wouldn't be attracted to them, then you don't think transwomen are women.

Since we can't just change who we're sexually attracted to, the question of whether transwomen are women, etc. is a completely personal matter that cannot be affected by anything anyone else thinks.

C’est la vie.
 
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