Discussion: Transwomen are not women (Part 7)

[TurkeysGhost]

No allegations have been made and denied. There's no denial. Everyone agrees what happened.



Did you comment on harm before? I must have missed it. It's a question that, to the best of my memory, you've never addressed.

Yes, you must have missed it.

Merager denies the claim, saying she was just using the locker room normally and was in fact mostly concealed by a jacuzzi or tub or something.

Everything about the Wi Spa was a bunch of garbage and lies,” Merager said in an interview. She says she is legally female in California and was in a jacuzzi in the women’s section when she was accosted by “Cubana Angel.”

“She never saw me naked. I was underwater with water all the way up to my chest.” Merager denies ever being erect or around children at the spa. She says she is actually the victim of sexual harassment by transphobic women at the Wi Spa.

https://nypost.com/2021/09/02/charges-filed-against-sex-offender-in-wi-spa-casecharges-filed-against-sex-offender-in-notorious-wi-spa-incident/

 

[d4m10n]

Not exactly the best spokesperson to represent the TERF viewpoint...

Certainly not when there are articulate radical feminist philosophers still living and writing, if no longer teaching.

 

[theprestige]

The real question is why ST is plying his trade here, instead of finding some properly soft-brained audience, who will be swayed by his charms and advance his cause.

 

[Meadmaker]

Yes, you must have missed it.

Merager denies the claim, saying she was just using the locker room normally and was in fact mostly concealed by a jacuzzi or tub or something.

Yes. He (as the media calls him) was using the locker room normally. in other words, he was taking off his clothes. That's what you do in a locker room. He did also say that he was concealed in a jacuzzi, but it's impossible to remain concealed while exiting or entering the jacuzzi. So, yeah, "mostly" is the correct term.

Darren Merager has a penis. At least one of the women, and perhaps more, at the spa saw his penis. That's really not in dispute.

There has been some talk about lewd conduct in this thread, but there really are no allegations about lewd conduct. There is also a claim that Merager's penis was partially erect, but, really, that doesn't matter at all, legally. I don't think it's relevant. I don't think erections are illegal.

I suppose the anxiety could be heightened by an erect penis, but it would be really unfair to blame a women for getting a hard-on. It's embarrassing if it occurs at the wrong time, but it's a perfectly natural bodily function and shouldn't be held against him. (No pun intended.)

I'm not sure what Merager was saying were lies. Does he really think no one saw his penis? It's a Korean spa. How else do you suppose they knew he was male? In the interaction with the staff, one of the cis women, on being told that Merager was a woman, exclaimed, "He's got a dick!" She knew that was true because she saw it.

None of this is in dispute.

It's possible that in describing things in podcasts or news sources or talk shows or the internet or wherever people talk about these things, some hyperbolic rhetoric was used. Perhaps that's what Merager meant by "lies". That undoubtedly happened. People do that. However, the core facts of the case are that Merager was seen naked by people who at some point were themselves naked, and who expected not to see a penis, because they thought that all the penis people were supposed to be on a different floor.


So, we can dismiss any of the more salacious descriptions. Those are exaggerated. The simple facts, that Merager has a penis and that said penis was seen by one or more cisgender women (and possibly one girl of some indeterminate age less than 18) at Wi Spa, are not in dispute.

So, any interest in talking about whether any harm occurred in relation to this case?

ETA: And if Merager is ever located, perhaps we will learn more about his side of the story, but I can't imagine it's relevant. He says that "Cubana Angel" didn't see him naked, but it's impossible for him to have concealed his genitals, and it's impossible for him to know who did or didn't see it. while getting into the jacuzzi, so it's impossilbe to take his statement seriously.

 

[Cain]

Yes. He (as the media calls him) was using the locker room normally.

I looked to refresh my memory of the case in my initial reply to you, and the above-cited NYPOST article was the first hit. The conservative (and trashy) NYP refers to Merager as a "she" (as does the Slate article). Maybe every other source in the universe says "he," but whatever precisely transpired, and however the media writes about it, is beside the point.

 

[Meadmaker]

I looked to refresh my memory of the case in my initial reply to you, and the above-cited NYPOST article was the first hit. The conservative (and trashy) NYP refers to Merager as a "she" (as does the Slate article). Maybe every other source in the universe says "he," but whatever precisely transpired, and however the media writes about it, is beside the point.

I took a quick look to check my memory. I saw some "he", some "she", some "they".

I'm going to revert to my pre-1980 grammar instruction and us "he" as the default for an unknown or irrelevant sex.

Legally, though, the answer matters. If Darren Merager is a woman, then his use of the spa that day was perfectly normal. If Darren Merager is a man, his use of the spa was criminal. I'm somewhat disappointed he seems to have gone underground. It could have made for an interesting trial. Although, he doesn't seem wealthy enough to afford an actual trial. It probably would have been a plea deal anyway.


Now, in one of the last exchanges with you, I discussed ways of lessening anxiety and overcoming the natural (in my opinion) unease associated with taking off clothes in the presence of the opposite sex, and specifically the natural fear that women may have with male nudity in situations where they are vulnerable.

I don't have complete answers, but I think the starting point has to be some sort of legal sex change, so that at the least, a male bodied person in a female space could demonstrate that the person is recognized as a woman in society. However, getting that legal recognition should not be as simple as declaring a desire. There has to be criteria established to prevent the scenario where someone is just kind of experimenting with sexuality and might like to say he's a woman for now.

I don't know what those criteria need to be. In my opinion, it shouldn't be available to anyone capable of functioning sexually as their birth sex. i.e. if you can get an erection, you would have to remain, legally, a man.

The particulars are not all that important for the purposes of this conversation. The point I am making is that women could probably overcome that natural anxiety if there was a process trans people could go through to "prove" that they are "really" women, despite appearances.

 

[Meadmaker]

And, be all of that as it may, I'm still curious how SuburbanTurkey would address the question of harm. Was any harm done that day at Wi Spa?

Of course, anyone else is also welcome to address the question, but curiousity about SuburbanTurkey's response is what made me crawl back out of my hole and jump into the thread again.

 

[Sherkeu]

Legally, though, the answer matters. If Darren Merager is a woman, then his use of the spa that day was perfectly normal. If Darren Merager is a man, his use of the spa was criminal. I'm somewhat disappointed he seems to have gone underground. It could have made for an interesting trial. Although, he doesn't seem wealthy enough to afford an actual trial. It probably would have been a plea deal anyway.

He may not be wealthy now but his background says differently.

In 2012 he was picked up on a warrant for stolen property and held on $500K (initial) bail. Not sure of the details on that crime but he managed to post bond and get out to commit another theft- one that made the news.
His bail then was $10million- and he could not pay that.

His 2018 charges for an incident in a locker room had a $150k bail and he is currently awaiting court for that one... and now this one.

May 2012:
"Warrant arrest. 2000 block S. Coast Hwy. Darren Agee Merager, 42, of Marina Del Rey, was arrested for a Beverly Hills warrant for stolen property. Bail was set at $500,000."

Sept 2012- Jan 2013:
"Los Angeles County prosecutors have charged six people in connection with the theft of $3.2 million worth of paintings, wine, jewelry and a luxury car from bond guru Jeffrey Gundlach’s Santa Monica home last September.
Darren Agee Merager, 43, is charged with two counts each of first-degree residential burglary and conspiracy to commit a crime and one count of receiving stolen property stemming from break-ins at Gundlach’s home last Sept. 12 and 13.
Merager has a string of felony convictions dating back to 1991. If convicted he faces more than nine years in state prison."

Jan 2014:
"Darren Agee Merager, was sentenced to four years in prison Tuesday, after being convicted of stealing millions of dollars in artwork, jewelry, wine, and a Porsche from the Santa Monica home of prominent investment fund manager Jeffrey Gundlach in September 2012.

The Los Angeles Times reports that Merager, 44, pleaded no contest to the burglary charge as part of a deal with the Los Angeles County district attorney's office. Without the deal he could have served more than nine years in prison due to previous felony convictions."

Also interesting is a true crime writer had an article about him (since updated). 2 realtors commented that he wrote them from in 2005 from a level 5 prison in Vacaville asking about high end properties 'north of Wilshire' and artwork auctions. Those comments were from 2016.
see it here:http://jimfishertruecrime.blogspot.com/2014/01/the-big-santa-monica-art-heist.html

I think by now, law enforcement knows all they need to about this guy and his methods.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Yes. He (as the media calls him) was using the locker room normally. in other words, he was taking off his clothes. That's what you do in a locker room. He did also say that he was concealed in a jacuzzi, but it's impossible to remain concealed while exiting or entering the jacuzzi. So, yeah, "mostly" is the correct term.

Darren Merager has a penis. At least one of the women, and perhaps more, at the spa saw his penis. That's really not in dispute.

There has been some talk about lewd conduct in this thread, but there really are no allegations about lewd conduct. There is also a claim that Merager's penis was partially erect, but, really, that doesn't matter at all, legally. I don't think it's relevant. I don't think erections are illegal.

I suppose the anxiety could be heightened by an erect penis, but it would be really unfair to blame a women for getting a hard-on. It's embarrassing if it occurs at the wrong time, but it's a perfectly natural bodily function and shouldn't be held against him. (No pun intended.)

I'm not sure what Merager was saying were lies. Does he really think no one saw his penis? It's a Korean spa. How else do you suppose they knew he was male? In the interaction with the staff, one of the cis women, on being told that Merager was a woman, exclaimed, "He's got a dick!" She knew that was true because she saw it.

None of this is in dispute.

It's possible that in describing things in podcasts or news sources or talk shows or the internet or wherever people talk about these things, some hyperbolic rhetoric was used. Perhaps that's what Merager meant by "lies". That undoubtedly happened. People do that. However, the core facts of the case are that Merager was seen naked by people who at some point were themselves naked, and who expected not to see a penis, because they thought that all the penis people were supposed to be on a different floor.


So, we can dismiss any of the more salacious descriptions. Those are exaggerated. The simple facts, that Merager has a penis and that said penis was seen by one or more cisgender women (and possibly one girl of some indeterminate age less than 18) at Wi Spa, are not in dispute.

So, any interest in talking about whether any harm occurred in relation to this case?

ETA: And if Merager is ever located, perhaps we will learn more about his side of the story, but I can't imagine it's relevant. He says that "Cubana Angel" didn't see him naked, but it's impossible for him to have concealed his genitals, and it's impossible for him to know who did or didn't see it. while getting into the jacuzzi, so it's impossilbe to take his statement seriously.

If Merager was using this facility in compliance with California's new laws regarding gender discrimination, then I don't see how there's a crime. A transwoman using a locker room for ordinary reasons is not a crime.

The state will either have to show that Merager is not a woman, or that Merager was engaging in some conduct that was in itself lewd. California allows for trans people to officially change their gender, so the first would be pretty straight forward I would think.

And, be all of that as it may, I'm still curious how SuburbanTurkey would address the question of harm. Was any harm done that day at Wi Spa?

Of course, anyone else is also welcome to address the question, but curiousity about SuburbanTurkey's response is what made me crawl back out of my hole and jump into the thread again.

I suppose this depends on what actually happened, which is very much in dispute. A transwoman using a locker room as intended is not a cause of harm to my eye. Someone engaging in lewd behavior obviously is, and that is true generally, not just regarding trans people.

 

[Matthew Best]

Also interesting is a true crime writer had an article about him (since updated). 2 realtors commented that he wrote them from in 2005 from a level 5 prison in Vacaville asking about high end properties 'north of Wilshire' and artwork auctions. Those comments were from 2016.
see it here:http://jimfishertruecrime.blogspot.com/2014/01/the-big-santa-monica-art-heist.html

I wonder if commenter "anonymous" is Merager him/her/themself?

 

[Earthborn]

What, positively, is a gender identity?

It is what one feels as the connection to or alienation from the sexual characteristics of one's own body.

Can you give the name of a gender or two and also state what the labels represent?

Are you asking the names of a gender identity or two? A person can identify as a man, a woman, as neither, as both, or as something in between.

If gender describes how the sexes behave, a female person will always be a woman, as the term covers the behaviour of every female, even transmen.

If gender describes how the sexes stereotipically behave, then there will be cis-females who aren't women, because they like arm wrestling and fast cars.

The term "gender" by itself describes nothing. You have to specify what aspect of gender you are talking about. If you are talking about how the sexes stereotypically behave, you are talking about gender role or gender expectations. A cis-female who likes arm wrestling or fast cars is a woman who enjoys things that are not typically considered feminine.

 

[Sherkeu]

I wonder if commenter "anonymous" is Merager him/her/themself?

I thought so too!! Especially the rant of being female gender with a big dick- and accusing the other poster of being jealous.

 

[Meadmaker]

If Merager was using this facility in compliance with California's new laws regarding gender discrimination, then I don't see how there's a crime. A transwoman using a locker room for ordinary reasons is not a crime.

I didn't ask if there was a crime. I asked if there was harm.

The state will either have to show that Merager is not a woman, or that Merager was engaging in some conduct that was in itself lewd. California allows for trans people to officially change their gender, so the first would be pretty straight forward I would think.

That part seems reasonable. If Darren Merager has gone through the legal process of changing his gender, it seems to me that there is no case against....Darren.

I suppose this depends on what actually happened, which is very much in dispute.

It really isn't.

There is some insistence that there was an erection, and that has been disputed by Darren, but erections aren't lewd conduct.

A transwoman using a locker room as intended is not a cause of harm to my eye.

Ok. I'll put you down for there was no harm....if Darren Merager is really a transwoman.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Ok. I'll put you down for there was no harm....if Darren Merager is really a transwoman.

Yeah, that sounds about right. Assuming Merager is actually a transwoman and didn't engage in any lewd conduct, I don't see a harm and certainly not a crime.

 

[d4m10n]

It is what one feels as the connection to or alienation from the sexual characteristics of one's own body.

If someone is basically content with the sexual aspects of their body, does that imply connection or identity?

If someone is uncomfortable with emergent sexual characteristics (e.g. during puberty) does that imply alienation?

 

[Olmstead]

Yeah, that sounds about right. Assuming Merager is actually a transwoman and didn't engage in any lewd conduct, I don't see a harm and certainly not a crime.

I fail to see why the harm would depend on gender identity, when the events that transpired would be identical in both cases.

I understand why there would be a difference legally.

 

[Earthborn]

I'm going to revert to my pre-1980 grammar instruction and us "he" as the default for an unknown or irrelevant sex.

Your grammar instruction was sexist.

If Darren Merager is a woman, then his use of the spa that day was perfectly normal. If Darren Merager is a man, his use of the spa was criminal.

A person who seems to be a man getting naked in a situation in which there are only women are expected to be naked, is neither perfectly normal nor necessarily criminal. A person having a legal right to be in such a place does not mean they don't have a responsibility to ensure others are not made to feel uncomfortable.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Just in case there are people who don't understand the SCOTUS case being discussed, the issue is that the Catholic hospital has a policy against performing any elective sterilizations.

They also generally have policies against life saving abortions instead going in to make sure they do extra collateral damage in the name of their religion. But hey no one really cares about the health and future fertility of pregnant women.

 

[Meadmaker]

Your grammar instruction was sexist.

True.

In Darren's case, though, trying to figure out a "proper" form of reference is just difficult enough that I'm giving up.

A person who seems to be a man getting naked in a situation in which there are only women are expected to be naked, is neither perfectly normal nor necessarily criminal. A person having a legal right to be in such a place does not mean they don't have a responsibility to ensure others are not made to feel uncomfortable.

Agreed.



Trying to apply standards of normality in this instance is a bit problematic. From accounts that I have read, he was using the spa's facilities in the same manner as the other patrons. Whether or not that was appropriate in Darren's case is a matter of some dispute. I tend to agree with your statement, but not everyone agrees.

 

[theprestige]

It is what one feels as the connection to or alienation from the sexual characteristics of one's own body.

That criteria puts it squarely alongside Body Integrity Identity Disorder, a mental derangement that absolutely calls for ameliorative treatment, not enablement as a human right.

Or else it's the same kind of thing as a fursona. And while it's (very slightly) amusing to crap on furries from time to time, I think most of them probably aren't mentally deranged. I also don't think furries need any sort of tolerance or accommodation in public policy, as a human right or as an animal right.