Discussion: Transwomen are not women (Part 7)

[d4m10n]

People should be free to exercise as much personal modesty as they chose...

Even if their choice is a traditional Korean spa where everyone is nude but also same-sex?

...and trans-exclusionary sex-segregation is pretty piss-poor at accomplishing that.

Is there another sort of sex segregation?

 

[Meadmaker]

More it made headlines because the incident was used as a pretext for a violent fascist rally. The crimes committed at this rally are, objectively speaking, much more severe than what was alleged in the spa. One man, a regular brawler at other far-right events, has since been charged with assault with a deadly weapon for clubbing a journalist in the head. A woman was stabbed in a case of friendly fire as she tried to help another the armed fascist to his feet during a brawl, and a woman journalist for the Guardian was attacked.

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2021-09-22/lapd-arrest-suspect-wi-spa-attack

SQURREL!


How do you suppose the protestors and counter protestors knew where to go?

But hey, it gave you an opportunity to avoid talking about the actual incident, and talk about something much more important.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Lily Cade, recently featured in an anti-trans piece in the BBC, has had her website pulled by her provider after publishing a series of screeds explicitly calling for the lynching of trans women.

https://twitter.com/chadloder/status/1455662943215906817

 

[TurkeysGhost]

SQURREL!


How do you suppose the protestors and counter protestors knew where to go?

But hey, it gave you an opportunity to avoid talking about the actual incident, and talk about something much more important.

You brought up media attention. The fascist rally brought far more attention than the allegedly criminal behavior that it was in response to.

A bunch of fascists taking to the streets and assaulting journalists while the police looked the other way is why the issue had so many headlines.

 

[Emily's Cat]

diminishing an alleged sexual crime against women and girls

Oh say it isn't so!

 

[Meadmaker]

You brought up media attention. The fascist rally brought far more attention than the allegedly criminal behavior that it was in response to.

A bunch of fascists taking to the streets and assaulting journalists while the police looked the other way is why the issue had so many headlines.

How did the fascists know where to go?

 

[Emily's Cat]

You brought up media attention. The fascist rally brought far more attention than the allegedly criminal behavior that it was in response to.

A bunch of fascists taking to the streets and assaulting journalists while the police looked the other way is why the issue had so many headlines.

Except for the huge response that occurred for female humans BEFORE the protest by female humans was even arranged, and before the right-wing idiots decided to crash that protest and cause problems.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

How did the fascists know where to go?

Is this supposed to be some gotcha? I never denied it was a news item on its own.

Fascists picked up on the viral video and news buzz and decided to plan a violent street rally in response, which massively dwarfed the inciting incidence both in press coverage and criminal behavior.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Since the BBC loves running anecdotes about bad behavior, wonder when they run their story about Lily Cade calling for trans women to be murdered. They gave her grievances a platform, seems only fair they would mention that she since went mask-off in advocating hate-crimes against trans women.

 

[p0lka]

And once someone actually comes up with a proper definition of gender based on these parameters this thread will really start kicking.

Personally, I don't see why it's so complicated?
Sex is a factual definition, it's a constant.
Gender has been a societal based way of fitting in that traditionally had to conform and correlate with sex.
We are finding out that it never really had to conform and correlate with sex, as it's a variable.
So I think a proper definition of gender could be 'the behaviour that would be traditionally associated with a sex, but actually isn't'.
edit:
changed that to the for clarity.

 

[Meadmaker]

This could devolve into one of those stupid sentence parsing things that isn't even relevant, so in an attempt to cut that short........

Sherkeu noted that there had been several incidents in the past, and that even had been brought up in the thread. One of them in the same spa (assuming that wispa isn't just a generic name for that sort of Korean spa. One of the cases Sherkeu cited was from "wispa"). It happens. That's really predictable. It should surprise no one.

Meanwhile, I had asked SuburbanTurkey a few pages back to comment on whatever harm may have occurred on the day that Darren Merager last visited Wi Spa, but SuburbanTurkey chose instead to focus on the demonstrations in the streets between the fascists (sic) , and the counter demonstrators. That's something SuburbanTurkey seems to really care about. Fascists and anti-fascists fighting in the streets he can get bothered about.

Spa customers? Not really worth commenting on.

 

[Olmstead]

Personally, I don't see why it's so complicated?
Sex is a factual definition, it's a constant.
Gender has been a societal based way of fitting in that traditionally had to conform and correlate with sex.
We are finding out that it never really had to conform and correlate with sex, as it's a variable.
So I think a proper definition of gender could be 'that behaviour that would be traditionally associated with a sex, but actually isn't'.

Objection! That definition should be taken out and shot.

If gender describes how the sexes behave, a female person will always be a woman, as the term covers the behaviour of every female, even transmen.

If gender describes how the sexes stereotipically behave, then there will be cis-females who aren't women, because they like arm wrestling and fast cars.

What else is there?

 

[p0lka]

Objection! That definition should be taken out and shot.

If gender describes how the sexes behave, a female person will always be a woman, as the term covers the behaviour of every female, even transmen.

If gender describes how the sexes stereotipically behave, then there will be cis-females who aren't women, because they like arm wrestling and fast cars.

What else is there?

Read what I said again, you seem to be taking it and inverting it into something I didn't say.

 

[theprestige]

Personally, I don't see why it's so complicated?
Sex is a factual definition, it's a constant.
Gender has been a societal based way of fitting in that traditionally had to conform and correlate with sex.
We are finding out that it never really had to conform and correlate with sex, as it's a variable.
So I think a proper definition of gender could be 'the behaviour that would be traditionally associated with a sex, but actually isn't'.
edit:
changed that to the for clarity.

And this would uncomplicate things how? You're not actually following the discussion.

 

[Olmstead]

Read what I said again, you seem to be taking it and inverting it into something I didn't say.

Maybe you can provide annotations? I really don't get what you're saying.

You mentioned behaviour. Based on that, there should be masculine behaviour and feminine behaviour, right? It doesn't have to be binary, it can be a scale, but this behaviour would then be a certain gender.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

This could devolve into one of those stupid sentence parsing things that isn't even relevant, so in an attempt to cut that short........

Sherkeu noted that there had been several incidents in the past, and that even had been brought up in the thread. One of them in the same spa (assuming that wispa isn't just a generic name for that sort of Korean spa. One of the cases Sherkeu cited was from "wispa"). It happens. That's really predictable. It should surprise no one.

Meanwhile, I had asked SuburbanTurkey a few pages back to comment on whatever harm may have occurred on the day that Darren Merager last visited Wi Spa, but SuburbanTurkey chose instead to focus on the demonstrations in the streets between the fascists (sic) , and the counter demonstrators. That's something SuburbanTurkey seems to really care about. Fascists and anti-fascists fighting in the streets he can get bothered about.

Spa customers? Not really worth commenting on.

What's new to comment on? Allegations have been made and denied, and a criminal case is pending. Has any new info arisen since the last time we were discussing this?

Sherkeu's comments are second-hand tales of woe without citation. What's to discuss there? How can anything claimed there be refuted, it's pure unverified anecdote.

 

[Ziggurat]

What's new to comment on? Allegations have been made and denied, and a criminal case is pending. Has any new info arisen since the last time we were discussing this?

Sherkeu's comments are second-hand tales of woe without citation. What's to discuss there? How can anything claimed there be refuted, it's pure unverified anecdote.

You're avoiding the question.

If the allegations of Merager's actions are true, do you think that harm was done? Yes, yes, it's still legally an open question of whether the allegations are true. But you can still make a provisional judgment about what you would conclude if they are.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

You're avoiding the question.

If the allegations of Merager's actions are true, do you think that harm was done? Yes, yes, it's still legally an open question of whether the allegations are true. But you can still make a provisional judgment about what you would conclude if they are.

I didn't realize this needed to be said. Someone sexually gratifying themselves in a public place is obviously a crime, though I would point out that this would also be true even if Merager were a cis woman.

The veracity of the claims remain to be proven. Merager claims to have been using the locker room for normal purposes, the accusers claim otherwise. Given Merager's previous criminal record, it seems like there's a very good chance the claims are substantiated. I would point out that the previous offenses date to before any trans inclusive policies were adopted, so it doesn't really seem that this policy was a meaningful barrier to this Merager.

In the absence of any actual statistical data showing a rise in these kinds of crimes, the anti-trans advocates will have to rely of salacious anecdotes.

 

[Meadmaker]

What's new to comment on? Allegations have been made and denied, and a criminal case is pending. Has any new info arisen since the last time we were discussing this?

Sherkeu's comments are second-hand tales of woe without citation. What's to discuss there? How can anything claimed there be refuted, it's pure unverified anecdote.

No allegations have been made and denied. There's no denial. Everyone agrees what happened.



Did you comment on harm before? I must have missed it. It's a question that, to the best of my memory, you've never addressed.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Anti-Transgender Activist Quoted by BBC Calls For Trans Women to Be 'Lynched'


An anti-transgender activist recently quoted in a controversial BBC article posted online advocating for violence against transgender women and called for them to be lynched.

Lily Cade, a lesbian porn star who apologized amid a series of sexual assault allegations in 2017, was featured in a controversial BBC article that claims trans women pressure lesbians into sex.

In a post on her website called "Where the are these children's mothers," Cade characterized trans women as "vile, weak, disgusting whiny, fake-victim" and supported acts of violence against them.

"Cancel this so hard that no man dare walk the path of the trans woman in public ever again! Enough is enough. Lynch Kaitlyn (Jenner)! Lynch the 'Sisters' Wachowski! Lynch Laurel Hubbard! Lynch Fallon Fox!" the post read.

https://www.newsweek.com/anti-transgender-activist-quoted-bbc-calls-trans-women-lynched-1645231

Not exactly the best spokesperson to represent the TERF viewpoint, at least if the argument is that these transphobes aren't motivated by overt bigotry and right wing extremism.