Discussion: Transwomen are not women (Part 7)

[theprestige]

The weeks leading up to Pride parade are interesting here in San Francisco. This year, many shops and restaurants posted signs with the LGBT rainbow flag and a message indicating "EVERYONE is welcome here!" just to clarify and let everyone know that they're one of the few establishments in the city that will dare to take money from gay people.

When I first moved to Portland, the "everyone is welcome here!" signs in all the shop windows made me think Portland was a really open and tolerant place, and people were proud to wear that positive attitude on their sleeves.

A few years later, when "black lives matter" posters started showing up in all the same windows downtown, I realized it was more about protective markings. "Please don't break my windows and loot my shop, I'm on your side!"

 

[Ziggurat]

When I first moved to Portland, the "everyone is welcome here!" signs in all the shop windows made me think Portland was a really open and tolerant place, and people were proud to wear that positive attitude on their sleeves.

A few years later, when "black lives matter" posters started showing up in all the same windows downtown, I realized it was more about protective markings. "Please don't break my windows and loot my shop, I'm on your side!"

"And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt."

 

[Emily's Cat]

Do you think Ngo doesn't qualify for the term?

He's been outed collaborating with militant fascist street gangs in Portland, most notably Patriot Prayer..

I don't know enough about Ngo to make an informed decision, and well... I'm disinclined to take your word for it. I don't trust your judgement on when that term does or does not apply.

Still doesn't answer why you linked to LGBA though.

 

[d4m10n]

Do you think Ngo doesn't qualify for the term?

Is there a thread about Andy Ngo, perchance?

Episode 5 with David Bell is a really good explanation of the issues surrounding child and adolescent gender dysphoria, and the harmful effects of ideological interference in clinical practice.

Listened to this episode while driving today, it thoroughly debunks the idea (promoted upthread) that medical experts are all of one mind on how to best proceed.

 

[LondonJohn]

It makes a change from valuing orthodoxy more than thinking at all.

If you're implying here that it's now considered orthodoxy that a) transgender identity is a valid condition in and of itself, and not a disorder or degenerate behaviour, and b) transgender people deserve to have their rights respected, recognised and protected (within reasonable do-no-harm-related parameters, of course)...

... then I'd say it's fantastic that progressive societies have come so far over the past 10 years that the above has gone from fringe (at best) heterodoxy as recently as 2010, to orthodoxy today. And that progressive governments, parliaments, regulators and judiciaries have been ensuring that this new orthodoxy is fairly reflected in legislation, regulation and the application of justice.


(The words "policy capture" incoming in 5....4.....3.....)

 

[LondonJohn]

https://twitter.com/ALLIANCELGB/with_replies

"Whatever his other work in the past" is doing a lot of heavy lifting here. Ngo is a notorious fascist propagandist who's job is little more than to mark targets for storms of online reactionaries to relentlessly harass.

TERFs and fash working hand in hand, what a shock

Yes. And I think it's pretty extraordinary for the LGB Alliance even to have felt it necessary to write those words "Whatever his other work in the past".

To me, it tends to imply the following: "Much/most of Ngo's previous work has totally stunk as far as we're concerned. But because he happens to have written something about the WiSpa incident that's in line with our agenda, and because he can galvanise a reasonably large audience..... we're more than happy to hold our noses (including a willful failure even to check the reliability/truthfulness of his reporting on the WiSpa affair) and welcome him in with open arms."

 

[d4m10n]

...transgender identity is a valid condition in and of itself, and not a disorder...

Can you think of any other non-disorders which generally require medical and/or surgical intervention?

 

[LondonJohn]

Listened to it while driving today, it debunks the idea (promoted upthread) that medical experts are all of one mind on how to best proceed.

I think it's long been clear that there are opposing views with the medical community on how best to work with/treat adolescents with gender dysphoria and/or transgender identity.

And that's because it's an extremely, extremely difficult subject. There are all sorts of variables, risks, permissions, informed-consent matters, reversibility matters.... all of which pose few problems in adults with transgender identity/gender dysphoria, but which pose considerable problems when it comes to adolescents.

I'd suggest that it'll probably take several more years yet before an optimal approach works itself out.

 

[LondonJohn]

Can you think of any other non-disorders which generally require medical and/or surgical intervention?

Your point is?

(Is your point that you yourself do consider transgender identity to be a disorder (or the product of a disorder)?. That's the only context IMO in which your question to me would seem to make any sense at all.)

 

[Olmstead]

Your point is?

(Is your point that you yourself do consider transgender identity to be a disorder (or the product of a disorder)?. That's the only context IMO in which your question to me would seem to make any sense at all.)

Yes? Valid condition doesn't mean anything, at all.

 

[d4m10n]

Your point is?

Disorders require treatment.

(Arguably, the whole point of diagnosis is to provide the best available treatment.)

((Medical practitioners may well be committing malpractice to provide treatment where no disorder exists.))

 

[Elaedith]

Is there a thread about Andy Ngo, perchance?

Listened to this episode while driving today, it thoroughly debunks the idea (promoted upthread) that medical experts are all of one mind on how to best proceed.

The intention of activists is that you are only allowed to be of one mind. David Cantor likened it to the repressed memory scandal of the 90s, where clinicians were too afraid to speak. I think the tide is starting to turn though.

Incidentally, I saw this funny tweet from a retired psychiatrist in reference to the Kathleen Stock affair a little while ago.

 

[Howie Felterbush]

I'm amused by the term these days, because it's being applied to all parts of the political spectrum.

Fascism and communism have one very important thing in common.

The people who are most scared of them know the least about them.

 

[theprestige]

Fascism and communism have one very important thing in common.

The people who are most scared of them know the least about them.

I'm pretty sure ST knows full well that what he's talking about here isn't fascism. And if it really were, and he really were afraid of it, he'd probably not be speaking out like this.

ETA: Any plans to change your handle to Feltisbush? You know, in solidarity?

 

[Graham2001]

The intention of activists is that you are only allowed to be of one mind. David Cantor likened it to the repressed memory scandal of the 90s, where clinicians were too afraid to speak. I think the tide is starting to turn though.

There is definitely a 'one true cure' dynamic about the current iteration of the Trans movement. The Repressed Memory Movement held that all females (adults & children) had to do to cure their mental issues was accept they had been sexually assaulted by the male closest to them (Husband/Father).



A lot of people of all sexes suffered mental trauma as a result, and the testimony of those who had been sexually assaulted were devalued in the flood of false claims.



If the reports are correct, then the majority of those undergoing gender transition at present are (biological) female because this is now the 'one true cure' for their mental issues.


On the subject of Stonewalls influence in the UK, this speach from Ceri Black, a NI Lesbian was reprinted on Substack. If the allegations are correct, they have the police on their side:

I’m here to stand against the protection racket that is the diversity champion’s scheme, and to call for employers to join the flood of others who have left it.


But I hope you don’t mind if I take this opportunity to speak about what’s been happening to me over the last 48 hours instead of the speech I originally prepared.


You may know this already, but a man has managed to persuade the police to invite me to an interview, under caution, regarding my Twitter account...

https://grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/ceri-black-to-northern-ireland-police


The Nolan Report series in Post 1539 covers Stonewall's Diversity Champions Scheme and how it works.

 

[Meadmaker]

Guilt by association is a non-trivial factor of political movements. Like it or not, associating with people like Ngo is relevant.

Sure, I was more commenting on the political project that is the LGB alliance.

(I shouldn't, but.....)

I got curious, and I just feel like I have to ask.

The subject of Andy Ngo came up, this time, because of his reporting about Wi Spa.

Forget politics for a moment. Forget left and right, Democrat and Republican, fascist and woke, and just think about the Wi Spa incident itself. Just the people involved. Just Darren Merager, "Cubana Angel", a handful of other ciswomen who were spa customers, one "underage" girl, but that could mean 5 or it could mean 17. One or two staff members. Those were the only people present. Those were the people directly affected.

In your opinion, did anything bad happen that day? If so, could you describe what it was?


(And of course, politics and/or ideology might influence your opinion. I'm not asking you to disregard your general opinion about trans rights or any other aspect of the interaction at Wi Spa. What I'm asking is that you think of those people as individuals, not representatives of a "side", and the incident itself as something that occurred and affected real people, independent of the political implications of the associated news story. Did anything bad happen to any of the people involved that day?)

 

[Emily's Cat]

BBC Released an article on the coercion of lesbians by transwomen.

'We're being pressured into sex by some trans women'

CEO of Stonewall, Nancy Kelly, had this response for the article:

She said: "Sexuality is personal and something which is unique to each of us. There is no 'right' way to be a lesbian, and only we can know who we're attracted to.

"Nobody should ever be pressured into dating, or pressured into dating people they aren't attracted to. But if you find that when dating, you are writing off entire groups of people, like people of colour, fat people, disabled people or trans people, then it's worth considering how societal prejudices may have shaped your attractions.

"We know that prejudice is still common in the LGBT+ community, and it's important that we can talk about that openly and honestly."

When a charity that is supposed to support to advocate for lesbians in addition to trans takes the position that lesbians not wanting to have sex with dicks are prejudiced... I can see why LGB Alliance felt compelled to split.

The twitter responses are not surprising. Quite a few trans "allies" and some very loud transwomen insisting that they're on the right side of history when they suggest that lesbians need to "unlearn" their "genital preference" because how do they know they don't like dick if they won't try it?

 

[Olmstead]

Well, it's all about appearence, isn't it? There's no such thing as sexuality, really. I like women, but maybe if you pressed some fat bloke into a "beautiful woman mold" and cooked him for a few hours I would like him too. I always did like Lambert from Alien, but then, her actress was female.

 

[theprestige]

BBC Released an article on the coercion of lesbians by transwomen.

'We're being pressured into sex by some trans women'

CEO of Stonewall, Nancy Kelly, had this response for the article:

Heh.

There is no 'right' way to be a lesbian, and only we can know who we're attracted to.

"Nobody should ever be pressured into dating, or pressured into dating people they aren't attracted to. But if you find that when dating, you are writing off entire groups of people, like people of colour, fat people, disabled people or trans people, then it's worth considering how societal prejudices may have shaped your attractions.​

I'm not saying lesbians who write off entire groups of people, like men, are doing it wrong, but maybe society has made them into bigots, and not real lesbians.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Things must be even worse on the Cursed Isle than I thought that this kind of nutpicking moral panic is considered worthy of the BBC. Truly dire times over there.