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Discussion: Transwomen are not women (Part 7)

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Matthew Best said:
I don't have any sexual desire for my own penis, but my God it's totally gorgeous.
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The common use of the phallus as a charm and symbol across the world would argue that it is objectively attractive as it was found attractive across so many different cultures.
 
Ziggurat said:
That's a semantic quibble I'm not really interested in pursuing.



I'm saying that it's directly connected to sexual desire, and absent that sexual desire, it's not beautiful. If we want to use your terminology, genitals don't satisfy the innate criteria for being considered beautiful EXCEPT that they are sexually arousing.
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I'd argue that any innate criteria for beauty would be directly linked to SOMETHING (or was directly linked to something at some point in our evolution), whether it be viability for procreation, lack of disease, lack of physical deterioration, shelter, nutrition, etc.

I guess your argument is that genitals are innately ugly to every person, but because we come to associate them with physical pleasure, we are conditioned to see them as beautiful. But why would this perception evolve? Surely, it would be simpler if sexual desire wasn't in constant conflict with innate revulsion.

I think it might be the other way around. Some people are socially conditioned to perceive genitals as ugly outside of sexual contexts because they are taught to hide them away like some forbidden thing.

Edit: I was going to make a search for "Are genitals aesthetically pleasing to infants?", but I have a feeling that I'm already on enough government watchlists.
 
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Olmstead said:
I guess your argument is that genitals are innately ugly to every person, but because we come to associate them with physical pleasure, we are conditioned to see them as beautiful. But why would this perception evolve? Surely, it would be simpler if sexual desire wasn't in constant conflict with innate revulsion.
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Revulsion isn't an automatic response to ugliness. We are frequently merely indifferent to ugliness. Revulsion requires more than that. So I don't think that in general there is any revulsion to overcome.

ETA: and it makes sense to not have genitals intrinsically beautiful. No point in generating interest in them pre-puberty. That's just wasteful.

I think it might be the other way around. Some people are socially conditioned to perceive genitals as ugly outside of sexual contexts because they are taught to hide them away like some forbidden thing.
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Oh, I'm sure that's in play too, but that's not actually contradictory to my claim.

Edit: I was going to make a search for "Are genitals aesthetically pleasing to infants?", but I have a feeling that I'm already on enough government watchlists.
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I doubt any researchers are getting that study past an IRB either.
 
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I found this article on the right-wing Quillette blog, it's worth looking at. The dynamic described makes me think of 9/11 Truthers turning on each other once they realised that their hypotheses were mutually contractions...


Since Obergefell, Pride organizations in many parts of North America have been flush with cash and political influence, but not quite sure what to do with it. In Boston, as in other cities, Pride has fractured into several camps. One is made up of those who are happy to see Pride become a blander, more corporate, mass participation institution within America’s ever-expanding civic calendar. The second major bloc is made up of those who seek radicalism for its own sake, and who are desperate to rekindle what they see as the revolutionary origins of Pride. And so if gay rights is no longer radical, they insist, the LGBT movement must pour its energy and resources into causes that offer the possibility of militant politics—such as radical gender movements, the erasure of biological sex, anti-capitalism, demonization of Israel, extreme forms of “anti-racism,” pacifism, and police abolition. Even gays and lesbians, now seen as the “privileged” elite of the LGBT population, are the subject of suspicion, and even animosity.
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https://quillette.com/2021/10/13/the-implosion-of-bostons-pride-parade-is-a-sign-of-things-to-come/
 
Graham2001 said:
I found this article on the right-wing Quillette blog, it's worth looking at. The dynamic described makes me think of 9/11 Truthers turning on each other once they realised that their hypotheses were mutually contractions...
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I suspect there's another dynamic at play as well.

"Every great cause begins as a movement, becomes a business, and eventually degenerates into a racket."
- Eric Hoffer
 
As much as I enjoy it, I think the discussion of the aesthetics of genitalia is probably off topic?

Seriously, we are essentially only allowed to have one thread for a rather large topic with a lot of social and political impacts, I don't think we have room to accommodate long derails :(
 
d4m10n said:
The premise rings true to me; we had a big gay schism here in OKC as well.
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It rings true to me as well. Similar to how Atheism+ collapsed when everybody there turned on each other for lack of any real enemies left to fight, any group made up of low-empathy, narcissistic attention-seeking drama queens will fracture whenever the members feel like they're no longer the centre of attention.

Social media has really fed and exacerbated this phenomenon to the nth degree these days.
 
d4m10n said:
The premise rings true to me; we had a big gay schism here in OKC as well.
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There's also what's been revealed in this BBC series, for which it should be noted both the BBC and Stonewall the subject of the investigation refused to be interviewed for.


Nolan Investigates looks at the influence Stonewall has in public institutions across the UK. We talk to a range of voices with a view on sex, gender and identity.
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p09yjmph/episodes/downloads
 
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