Discussion: Transwomen are not women (Part 7)

[d4m10n]

Do you think this crimes would not have occurred with a different bathroom policy?

We don't know the details yet, but it's surely possible that the perp in question would've been hustled out of the ladies room in earlier times, back when it was clear to students and staff that he was not allowed therein.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you appear to be arguing that he ought to have been allowed therein.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

We don't know the details yet, but it's surely possible that the perp in question would've been hustled out of the ladies room in earlier times, back when it was clear to students and staff that he was not allowed therein.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you appear to be arguing that he ought to have been allowed therein.

I'm arguing that bathroom policy wouldn't have much impact on someone determined to commit forcible rape, as evidenced by the circumstances of the second alleged incident that had nothing to do with bathrooms.

Anecdotes aside, there is no data that shows that trans inclusion in bathrooms increases danger. Or has that changed? This is a skeptics forum after all, do you have data suggesting otherwise, or just rely on particularly nasty anecdotes?

 

[d4m10n]

...just another scare story to bolster the already well debunked myth of the danger of trans people in bathrooms.

Are you saying the alleged perpetrator isn't dangerous or isn't trans?

 

[d4m10n]

I'm arguing that bathroom policy wouldn't have much impact on someone determined to commit forcible rape, as evidenced by the circumstances of the second alleged incident that had nothing to do with bathrooms.

The second incident tells us nothing about whether sex segregation would've prevented the first one.

 

[d4m10n]

This is a skeptics forum after all, do you have data suggesting otherwise, or just rely on particularly nasty anecdotes?

If we cannot agree that this is at least a potential data point, I see no point in gathering more data.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Are you saying the alleged perpetrator isn't dangerous or isn't trans?

Neither.

DO you think policy should be made based on the most recent anecdote of horrible crime?

You didn't answer my question. Is there any data showing that trans inclusion in bathrooms leads to an increase in crime there?

 

[d4m10n]

Is there any data showing that trans inclusion in bathrooms leads to an increase in crime there?

If we cannot agree that this is at least a potential data point, I see no point in gathering more data.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

If we cannot agree that this is at least a potential data point, I see no point in gathering more data.

I never said it wasn't a data point, though there's very little certainty about whether this student was trans or was actually allowed to be in the bathroom.

Has there been a spike or not?

 

[d4m10n]

Has there been a spike or not?

In bathroom assaults? I don't think the FBI tracks that in their crime stats.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Seems to be an awful lot of fanfic going into filling the huge gaps in this story with a pernicious conspiracy theory.

Does the school board even have the authority to prevent a student from attending a public school while they are accused of a crime? What authority does the board have to expel a student from all public schools?

I'm not seeing how moving a student to a different school away from an alleged victim is anything but a prudent action.

It seems safe to say that the school had nothing to do with a student being required to wear an ankle monitor. Sounds like it was a condition of a pretrial release or as part of a criminal conviction. Schools don't have authority to make students wear GPS anklets.

Won't someone think of the poor rapist!!!!! All of this conspiracy theory just to make some innocent transperson look bad, it's disgusting! I bet those young females got themselves rape and assaulted on purpose, just because they're transphobic bigots!!!!

I should stop being surprised by the complete lack of compassion extended toward females, I suppose.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

In bathroom assaults? I don't think the FBI tracks that in their crime stats.

So you have nothing to suggest that trans inclusion is a threat in bathrooms, other than your gut instinct and totally non-statistical anecdotes.

How is this meaningfully different than white racists that recite the grisly details of black crime?

 

[Emily's Cat]

Yeah, probably would have been nice to get some clarification on this, but a bunch of shrieking reactionaries mad about made up problems brought the public meeting to a grinding halt. That's kinda my point.

Maybe they could have got an explanation from the board, satisfying or not, and asked more probing questions, but they were too busy screeching about crypto-Marxism to stay on task.

Seems like this would be an appropriate post in the CRT thread, not in here.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Seems like this would be an appropriate post in the CRT thread, not in here.

You might not believe me, but the moral panic about trans people has a lot to do with the right wing freakout about CRT, in that both are largely imagined problems meant to advance the right wing culture war.

It's no coincidence that, in these frothing masses of reactionaries, the two issues often bleed together.

ETA: I suppose the trans freakout deserves slightly more respect, in the sense that trans people actually exist, which is saying a lot compared to the entirely imagined threat of CRT.

 

[Emily's Cat]

The man was arrested after he got into a shouting match with another member of the public in attendance. The meeting was shortly called off because the crowd was jeering and otherwise acting like a frothy mouthed mob, making an orderly meeting impossible.

I hope the second meeting went better, maybe they would actually get some answers to their questions.

ETA: I'm perfectly willing to believe that a school admin tried to sweep a crime on campus under the rug, or that a school board might be less than candid about how they handled a violent crime. I'm not seeing how having a bunch of shrieking lunatics searching for crypto-commies improves the situation. In fact, the belligerence of those engaged in this baseless moral panic about CRT make it more difficult to resolve real problems.

If I were a crooked school board member looking for a pretext to avoid public meetings, a bunch of raving lunatics screaming about CRT or whatever would be the perfect excuse to cancel a meeting.

There's a lot of effort being put into trying to convince everyone not to look behind the curtain. Lots of inflammatory rhetoric intended to demonize and paint all of the parents as completely off their rockers and not worthy of any consideration at all - including the one whose female child was raped.

Interestingly, not a whit of acknowledgement that the perpetrator is transgender. We've been told over and over and over and over that this would never happen - no transgender identified male would EVER harm a female, it's all a made up hysterical right wing conspiracy and there's no proof at all - none! We've been told over and over and over that there's absolutely zero risk to females by allowing transgender identified males who've had no surgery and no treatment and no ******* diagnosis have access to female restrooms and locker rooms solely on their spoken declaration of their gender identity - none at all, it's a conspiracy put together by frothing TERFs and transphobes.

It's very convenient that there's this coincidental element of anti-racism going on that you can redirect attention to so you don't have to actually engage with the problem here.







* "This is an outlier, you can't use that as an example" in 3.... 2.... 1....

 

[TurkeysGhost]

There's a lot of effort being put into trying to convince everyone not to look behind the curtain. Lots of inflammatory rhetoric intended to demonize and paint all of the parents as completely off their rockers and not worthy of any consideration at all - including the one whose female child was raped.

Interestingly, not a whit of acknowledgement that the perpetrator is transgender. We've been told over and over and over and over that this would never happen - no transgender identified male would EVER harm a female, it's all a made up hysterical right wing conspiracy and there's no proof at all - none! We've been told over and over and over that there's absolutely zero risk to females by allowing transgender identified males who've had no surgery and no treatment and no ******* diagnosis have access to female restrooms and locker rooms solely on their spoken declaration of their gender identity - none at all, it's a conspiracy put together by frothing TERFs and transphobes.

It's very convenient that there's this coincidental element of anti-racism going on that you can redirect attention to so you don't have to actually engage with the problem here.







* "This is an outlier, you can't use that as an example" in 3.... 2.... 1....

Considering that we know next to nothing about the alleged perpetrator, I think it's fair to be cautious about such declarations. Given that the accused is a juvenile, there's a decent chance we won't get much more detail.

The way they are described, the person sounds more on the nonbinary side than out and out transgender. I (and you) have no idea how this person identifies.

Considering the same student had no problem forcing a student into a classroom to commit forcible rape (allegedly), I see no reason to assume permission to access a women's restroom was a meaningful barrier to criminal activity.

I'm perfectly willing to believe that a school admin tried to cover up a violent crime. I see very little evidence to assume this is rooted in some pro-trans agenda, rather than any other explanation (such as the extremely common instinct for authority figures to try to conceal bad news that occurs under their watch).

 

[Emily's Cat]

Yes, it's available worldwide now. I'm up to episode 5, featuring Dr David Bell discussing gender dysphoria in children and adolescents. He did a brilliant job, in particular explaining the damage done by spurious analogous with sexual orientation.

I haven't had a chance to watch it yet, but it's sitting in another tab waiting until I have time

 

[d4m10n]

So you have nothing to suggest that trans inclusion is a threat in bathrooms, other than your gut instinct and totally non-statistical anecdotes.

Well, that and all the stats about male sexual violence.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Well, that and all the stats about male sexual violence.

Sure, that male aggression must show up in the data after trans-inclusive policies were adopted, right?

Legislation, regulations, litigation, and ballot propositions affecting public restroom access for transgender people increased drastically in the last three years. Opponents of gender identity inclusive public accommodations nondiscrimination laws often cite fear of safety and privacy violations in public restrooms if such laws are passed, while proponents argue that such laws are needed to protect transgender people and concerns regarding safety and privacy violations are unfounded. No empirical evidence has been gathered to test such laws’ effects. This study presents findings from matched pairs analyses of localities in Massachusetts with and without gender identity inclusive public accommodation nondiscrimination ordinances. Data come from public record requests of criminal incident reports related to assault, sex crimes, and voyeurism in public restrooms, locker rooms, and dressing rooms to measure safety and privacy violations in these spaces. This study finds that the passage of such laws is not related to the number or frequency of criminal incidents in these spaces. Additionally, the study finds that reports of privacy and safety violations in public restrooms, locker rooms, and changing rooms are exceedingly rare. This study provides evidence that fears of increased safety and privacy violations as a result of nondiscrimination laws are not empirically grounded.

Whoops

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13178-018-0335-z

This is a skeptics forum, right? Put up the evidence.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Show me a single citation that trans lobbies are opposed to cis women getting necessary medical care, I'll wait.

Your animus is showing here pretty strongly.

Poor argumentation. I never suggested they were opposed to cis women getting care. What I am suggesting is that this oh-so-powerless-and-extremely-marginalized group somehow has the power to get legislation passed to make their cosmetic surgeries a mandatory benefit.

The trans lobby has enough power to position non-medically-necessary treatment as a higher priority than medically justified treatment. Because feelings are more important than females.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Poor argumentation. I never suggested they were opposed to cis women getting care. What I am suggesting is that this oh-so-powerless-and-extremely-marginalized group somehow has the power to get legislation passed to make their cosmetic surgeries a mandatory benefit.

The trans lobby has enough power to position non-medically-necessary treatment as a higher priority than medically justified treatment. Because feelings are more important than females.

oooooo a mandatory benefit. aka the only type of benefit that is covered by insurance in this country. Spare me the spooky language.

One state has accepted that trans affirming care should be a covered medical service. Stop the presses! Take solace in the fact that trans affirming care remains out of reach for many.

How does trans people having access to medical care they want harm you or other cis women?

ETA: There's probably no shortage of trans people that would happily join you in an effort to demand better medical care from our terrible health system, but you might not find that association personally acceptable.