The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part II

[LondonJohn]

If you knew about simple physics, you'd know that if a Viking longboat capsized, it would not sink but it would turn belly up. The biggest hazard was probably running into rocks, causing a breach in the hull, then you were done for. All the churches around the coastal towns have votive ships hanging from the ceiling, which probably to back to pagan times to invoke safety for those at sea.

This is a large one at Turku Cathedral.

"If you knew about simple physics"

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! *breathes* AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!


I can categorically assure you, Vixen, that I know enough about physics to know that if you put a large mass of water into an open-decked ship, that ship will sink in the same horizontal orientation as it would normally have been at the surface (unless the ship's balance and attitude had also been adversely affected, in which case it would capsize and sink).

The Mediterranean is littered with wrecks of Greek and Roman ships from antiquity. These ships were all open-decked as well. And in a great deal of the wrecks - probably the majority in fact - the surviving evidence shows clearly that the ship sank straight down in its keel-down horizontal attitude: the ship's cargo (usually tightly-packed amphorae) has retained the shape of the ship - something that would be impossible if the ship had capsized and spilled its cargo out at/near the surface. I've dived on two such wrecks myself.

Don't tell me I don't understand physics, when it's you yourself who does not. And don't tell me that open-decked ships can't (and don't) sink straight down (rather than your ludicrous and totally unscientific pet theory that they usually turn upside down and stay afloat for some time). I know better than you in both cases. M'kay?

 

[LondonJohn]

Sorry, are you claiming a professor from a Norwegian University's Material Science Department is acting in bad faith?

This says more about you than it does about her.

You obviously don't understand the point of the post to which you were responding.

 

[LondonJohn]

“There’s no real evidence for it, but it is scientific fact.”

BRASS EYE!!

(In fact, one particular poster's set of contributions to this thread does seem rather like a bad homage to that fabulous mockumentary series....)

 

[Steve]

I'm going to drop this now. I was trying to find out if Vixen could admit to making a mistake, even something as inconsequential as a typo, and I have my answer now.



ETA: To those that have gone to the effort of avoiding gendered pronouns when referring to me, thank you. For future reference, and to save you typing more characters than necessary, I'm fine with he/him/his &c. I'm a boy (but my mother doesn't know it).<sup>1


1</sup>She totally does, I just couldn't resist.

"I'm a boy, I'm a boy
But my ma won't admit it" - Pete Townshend

 

[junkshop]

"I'm a boy, I'm a boy
But my ma won't admit it" - Pete Townshend

Oops, I buggered up the lyrics! Apologies to Mr Townsend

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Why are you continuing to humiliate yourself here Vixen? Are you pulling our legs, or are you genuinely this delusional about your own knowledge (or rather lack thereof)?

 

[MarkCorrigan]

If you knew about simple physics, you'd know that if a Viking longboat capsized, it would not sink but it would turn belly up. The biggest hazard was probably running into rocks, causing a breach in the hull, then you were done for. All the churches around the coastal towns have votive ships hanging from the ceiling, which probably to back to pagan times to invoke safety for those at sea.

This is a large one at Turku Cathedral.

You are kidding right?


If that's the case, tell me why the TV show survivor can violate "simple physics" in this challenge?

 

[Steve]

Why are you continuing to humiliate yourself here Vixen? Are you pulling our legs, or are you genuinely this delusional about your own knowledge (or rather lack thereof)?

The Dunning–Kruger effect has been discussed extensively in the forums in the past.

 

[Axxman300]

This is a decent video using a model to recreate the sinking:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNeIjqADJS0

Spoiler: The open ramp was enough to sink the vessel, and the model sink just like the real ship did.

They've posted some new videos from the private survey but I haven't watched them yet.

 

[Andy_Ross]

This is a decent video using a model to recreate the sinking:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNeIjqADJS0

Spoiler: The open ramp was enough to sink the vessel, and the model sink just like the real ship did.

They've posted some new videos from the private survey but I haven't watched them yet.

This one is good too.

 

[Vixen]

Anytime water gets into a ship the crew either bails it out manually (as the Vikings did I'm sure) or they run pumps.... I mean obviously. That doesn't mean its impossible for a long ship to be overwhelmed and lose buoyancy in a storm (do you disagree with this?!).

Also the picture you posted earlier of a ship is not a Viking Long Ship.

I didn't say it was. The Vikings were AD900or so. Churches didn't get established until circa 10th or 11th Century.

The long boats had strong rowers and some would keep watch whilst other slept. Obviously they had sea-faring skills with the Western Vikings (Norwegians) making it across the North and Irish Seas as well as the Atlantic. Grave finds for the Eastern Vikings (the Swedes) showed they traded as far away as the Black Sea.

They had a form of ballast for keeping their boats steady, a bag of sand or whatever, and of course, sails but how they coped with stormy weather or man overboard, I have no idea.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-55145985

 

[Vixen]

Looks to me like a 32-gun frigate of the mid-to-late Napoleonic era.

The votive ships are traditionally donated.

The practice of displaying model ships in churches stems from the Middle Ages and appears to have been known throughout Christian Europe, in both Catholic and Lutheran countries.[6] The oldest known remaining votive ship is a Spanish ship model from the 15th century. A model ship originally displayed in Stockholm Cathedral but today in the Stockholm Maritime Museum dating from circa 1590 is the oldest surviving example in the Nordic countries.

FB

 

[Vixen]

What is your evidence for this?

 

[Vixen]

This is a decent video using a model to recreate the sinking:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNeIjqADJS0

Spoiler: The open ramp was enough to sink the vessel, and the model sink just like the real ship did.

They've posted some new videos from the private survey but I haven't watched them yet.

Problem is, there are no witnesses as to when the bow visor fell off and no witnesses as to the car ramp being open, other than a 10º gap at the top, and even this is presumed based on the word of one of the crew who only saw it on a monitor, and even then he described water coming in through the sides, not the top.

There are a lot of assumptions here which have never been proven.

The assumption - which all points to being a false premise - is that it was a facsimile of the Herald of Free Enterprise accident, and therefore they had to postulate that in order for that to have happened, the bow visor and car ramp needed to be not there.

However, there are plenty of doubts about this:

• the Captain didn't steer the ship towards shallow water
• the car ramp was often secured with a hewser as the locks didn't align
• if it was secured to a capstan/windlass then it could not have been torn open (unless you are arguing the waves also cut through thick rope and a cast iron capstan
• the original Rockwater divers found the ramp shut and thus could not enter the car deck (they claimed)
• Arikas of OJK (July 2021) and Kurm for Mare Liberatum (Sept 2021) both found it hanging open
• Kurm discovered that contrary to the JAIC hypothesis water and airpressure smashed Deck 4 windows, the car deck doors can be seen to be intact and shut.

 

[Vixen]

This one is good too.

'Most likely' so not proven then.

See from 7.06 on. Explain these two guys climbing down if the car ramp had swung open.

They might well have noticed 'deformations on the stiffeners' but the forepeak of the bow visor would not be able to strike the car ramp in the middle, it being lower than the Atlantic lock. Surely those deformations are more likely to do with the presumed explosion that also caused the plastic deformations on the inner side of the bow visor.

 

[Andy_Ross]

I didn't say it was. The Vikings were AD900or so. Churches didn't get established until circa 10th or 11th Century.

The long boats had strong rowers and some would keep watch whilst other slept. Obviously they had sea-faring skills with the Western Vikings (Norwegians) making it across the North and Irish Seas as well as the Atlantic. Grave finds for the Eastern Vikings (the Swedes) showed they traded as far away as the Black Sea.

They had a form of ballast for keeping their boats steady, a bag of sand or whatever, and of course, sails but how they coped with stormy weather or man overboard, I have no idea.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-55145985

They didn't sail in bad weather or the winter and they didn't sail at night if they could help it. Most of their seafaring was coastal. They crossed the Atlantic in hops, first to Iceland and then to Greenland.
Lots of them were drowned and boats sunk.

 

[Andy_Ross]

That is not a Viking ship. It is a modern sailing dinghy with lots of built in buoyancy.

Is that the best you can do?

 

[Andy_Ross]

Problem is, there are no witnesses as to when the bow visor fell off and no witnesses as to the car ramp being open, other than a 10º gap at the top, and even this is presumed based on the word of one of the crew who only saw it on a monitor, and even then he described water coming in through the sides, not the top.

There are a lot of assumptions here which have never been proven.

The assumption - which all points to being a false premise - is that it was a facsimile of the Herald of Free Enterprise accident, and therefore they had to postulate that in order for that to have happened, the bow visor and car ramp needed to be not there.

However, there are plenty of doubts about this:

• the Captain didn't steer the ship towards shallow water
• the car ramp was often secured with a hewser as the locks didn't align
• if it was secured to a capstan/windlass then it could not have been torn open (unless you are arguing the waves also cut through thick rope and a cast iron capstan
• the original Rockwater divers found the ramp shut and thus could not enter the car deck (they claimed)
• Arikas of OJK (July 2021) and Kurm for Mare Liberatum (Sept 2021) both found it hanging open
• Kurm discovered that contrary to the JAIC hypothesis water and airpressure smashed Deck 4 windows, the car deck doors can be seen to be intact and shut.

Why do you think the captain had the opportunity or time to steer towards 'shallow water'?
Where was the nearest 'shallow water'? What do you think would happen to s hip in 'shallow water' in a storm?

How strong do you think a rope is compared to the weight and force of the bow visor moving?

Why do you think the visor was not free to move and is secure in it's position on the wreck?

If the wreck has moved, what do you think that might have done to the position of the bow visor?

Do you think that there are only windows on a couple of doors on the car deck?

What about the dozens of other windows on the ship? What about the air vents and intakes for air conditioning, engines and generators?

What about other access doors?

 

[junkshop]

... Also the picture you posted earlier of a ship is not a Viking Long Ship.

I didn't say it was. The Vikings were AD900or so. Churches didn't get established until circa 10th or 11th Century. The long boats had strong rowers and some would keep watch whilst other slept. Obviously they had sea-faring skills with the Western Vikings (Norwegians) making it across the North and Irish Seas as well as the Atlantic. Grave finds for the Eastern Vikings (the Swedes) showed they traded as far away as the Black Sea. They had a form of ballast for keeping their boats steady, a bag of sand or whatever, and of course, sails but how they coped with stormy weather or man overboard, I have no idea. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-55145985

Looks to me like a 32-gun frigate of the mid-to-late Napoleonic era.

The votive ships are traditionally donated. FB[/URL]

I'm probably going to regret this, but here goes:

Vixen, how is any of the highlighted in any way relevant to this conversation?

 

[Vixen]

That is not a Viking ship. It is a modern sailing dinghy with lots of built in buoyancy.

Is that the best you can do?

Obviously in Viking times there were no body cameras or people filming but this compilation should give you a feel for how the boat just turns over but doesn't sink.