China

[Ziggurat]

Utter nonsense not supported by any evidence.

Not so. This is obvious fact.

While travel from Wuhan to other parts of China was prohibited in order to try to contain the spread of COVID, China continued to allow travel from Wuhan to other countries. At the same time, they were also denying that the virus could be spread person to person. They were also on a global buying spree to grab up as much PPE as they could from other countries. Why would they do all this? It was obvious what the results would be. The only logical answer is that they wanted to spread it globally so that other countries would be hit as hard as they were. They didn't want to be the only country to suffer negative effects from COVID, that would put them at a competitive disadvantage.

 

[Boudicca90]

No. They are currently invading other countries in the South China Sea.

Proof?

Taiwan is everyone's problem. I'm sure you've heard about all the problems the current microchip shortage has caused, right? That's nothing compared to what would happen if China invaded Taiwan. The economic impact on the global economy would be devastating. We very much have a stake in what happens to Taiwan, whether we want it or not.

You really want war because of a possible microchip shortage?

Yeah, no. The equivalent is not Texas but the Philippines. It was once US territory, but hasn't been for decades now. We would be wrong to assert a claim, and other countries would be right to back Philippine independence against our claim.

The ROC and CCP fought a civil war and the CCP won, forming the PRC. Instead of accepting their loss and surrendering, the ROC fled to Taiwan and set up shop there, telling everyone else that they are the legitimate government. They aren't.

It would be like if Jefferson Davis fled to Texas and kept the CSA in power and was telling everybody the Confederacy was still in charge.

 

[Ziggurat]

I would argue that Covid hit China harder that most societies, politically, as it continues to be an indication that Xi doesn't have as much of a Mandate of Heaven as he wants the citizens to believe he does.

Probably. But what China really didn't want is to be the only country hit by COVID. If they were going to suffer, then by God so was everyone else. Hence, international travel out of Wuhan was fine, even while domestic travel was prohibited.

 

[Ziggurat]

You really want war because of a possible microchip shortage?

No. I repeatedly told you I don't want war. The best way to avoid war is to support Taiwan and make it clear that any attempt by China to invade would fail, and be devastating to them. And really, it doesn't take that much to send that message.

The ROC and CCP fought a civil war and the CCP won, forming the PRC. Instead of accepting their loss and surrendering, the ROC fled to Taiwan and set up shop there, telling everyone else that they are the legitimate government. They aren't.

It would be like if Jefferson Davis fled to Texas and kept the CSA in power and was telling everybody the Confederacy was still in charge.

You really are shilling for the CCP. Taiwan's government is far more legitimate than the CCP is.

 

[Boudicca90]

Probably. But what China really didn't want is to be the only country hit by COVID. If they were going to suffer, then by God so was everyone else. Hence, international travel out of Wuhan was fine, even while domestic travel was prohibited.

This is a damn fine cup of paranoia you have here.

You have no proof for any of these conspiracy theories. None of you do.

All you people can do is keep calling it the "China Virus" or "Wuhan Flu" or whatever other name you want to give it to increase animosity between our two countries. Not to mention the increased bigotry and discrimination against Asian-Americans here as a result of this talk.

Trump would be proud.

 

[Boudicca90]

No. I repeatedly told you I don't want war. The best way to avoid war is to support Taiwan and make it clear that any attempt by China to invade would fail, and be devastating to them. And really, it doesn't take that much to send that message.

What you say you support, and the consequences of your actions, are two different things. If we continue to antagonize them on Taiwan, it will lead to war.

You really are shilling for the CCP. Taiwan's government is far more legitimate than the CCP is.

The ROC lost the war and Taiwan doesn't exist as a recognized nation. Only 14 countries recognize Taiwan as an independent and sovereign nation, and the United States is not one of them. Guatemala has the largest population at 18 million, but most are under 1 million.

Yep, Taiwan has a ton of support for their claim...

 

[Roboramma]

I would argue that Covid hit China harder that most societies, politically, as it continues to be an indication that Xi doesn't have as much of a Mandate of Heaven as he wants the citizens to believe he does.

My impression has been that people here are pretty happy with the way that Covid has been handled by the government.

 

[dann]

My impression has been that people here are pretty happy with the way that Covid has been handled by the government.

That is also my impression. Some months ago, I saw a short video on Twitter showing how incomprehensible apparently normal Chinese found the response of most Western countries to the pandemic. Apart from the very beginning, which was a disaster, of course, China's pandemic strategy has been a huge success - also in terms of ideology:

The West’s inhumane approach of allowing infections to result in numerous deaths is something Chinese society cannot accept. And the economic costs of China’s policy are lower than the West’s hands-off approach toward the pandemic.
The costs of China’s policy are lower than the West’s hands-off approach toward the pandemic (GlobalTimes, Sep 14, 2021)

There is also this:
Fig. 2: Change in the prevalence of major depressive disorder after adjustment for (ie, during) the COVID−19 pandemic, 2020
Notice the color of China, Vietnam, Thailand and New Zealand!
From this article: Global prevalence and burden of depressive and anxiety disorders in 204 countries and territories in 2020 due to the COVID-19 pandemic (The Lancet, Oct 8, 2021)

 

[Ziggurat]

What you say you support, and the consequences of your actions, are two different things. If we continue to antagonize them on Taiwan, it will lead to war.

You have that exactly backwards. Our support for Taiwan is what has prevented war for decades now.

The ROC lost the war and Taiwan doesn't exist as a recognized nation.

You say that as if it's more important than the reality on the ground. It isn't.

And this is also a rather stunning turnaround from your position regarding Palestine. You're a hypocrite.

Yep, Taiwan has a ton of support for their claim...

They have a functioning, stable government and a prosperous economy. That is, in fact, a ton of support for their claim. And unlike the CCP, they don't have to repress their own population.

Why is it, despite being nominally progressive, you always seem to side with regressive governments abroad?

 

[Ziggurat]

Apart from the very beginning, which was a disaster, of course, China's pandemic strategy has been a huge success

How would you know? None of the numbers coming out of China are reliable. Not death tolls, not infection rates, not economic numbers, none of it.

 

[Boudicca90]

You have that exactly backwards. Our support for Taiwan is what has prevented war for decades now.



You say that as if it's more important than the reality on the ground. It isn't.

And this is also a rather stunning turnaround from your position regarding Palestine. You're a hypocrite.



They have a functioning, stable government and a prosperous economy. That is, in fact, a ton of support for their claim. And unlike the CCP, they don't have to repress their own population.

Why is it, despite being nominally progressive, you always seem to side with regressive governments abroad?

The difference is the Palestinian people are the native inhabitants of the land who then had their land stolen by a nation that was artificially created by the western powers after WWII. The Taiwanese people are Chinese people who lost a civil war and refuse to give the island back to China. Not remotely similar.

And my support or non-support of countries doesn't depend on whether or not I agree with their government. Only whether they are justified in their actions or not.

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

The difference is the Palestinian people are the native inhabitants of the land who then had their land stolen by a nation that was artificially created by the western powers after WWII. The Taiwanese people are Chinese people who lost a civil war and refuse to give the island back to China. Not remotely similar.

And my support or non-support of countries doesn't depend on whether or not I agree with their government. Only whether they are justified in their actions or not.

That is a bit one sided.

Taiwan actually has a native population. It's just that after the civil war was lost the Nationalist Chinese took over the island and set up a dictatorship, which eventually developed into the democracy it is today where the non-Chinese population has equal rights.
It could have become an independent nation if it weren't for cold war politics whereby the US and allies kept considering it the 'real' China to keep communist China from the UN security council seat, so both sides kept claiming to be the same country and everyone agreed, even when the UN seat switched.
And that's backfiring badly now.

 

[Boudicca90]

How would you know? None of the numbers coming out of China are reliable. Not death tolls, not infection rates, not economic numbers, none of it.

You could honestly say the same thing about Florida and DeSantis.

They've been caught manipulating their numbers multiple times, yet I hear no outrage on the right over that.

 

[Boudicca90]

That is a bit one sided.

Taiwan actually has a native population. It's just that after the civil war was lost the Nationalist Chinese took over the island and set up a dictatorship, which eventually developed into the democracy it is today where the non-Chinese population has equal rights.
It could have become an independent nation if it weren't for cold war politics whereby the US and allies kept considering it the 'real' China to keep communist China from the UN security council seat, so both sides kept claiming to be the same country and everyone agreed, even when the UN seat switched.
And that's backfiring badly now.

Is there an independence movement among the native population of Taiwan?

Otherwise I still can't see how there is any similarity. And Chinese rule of the island began all the way back in the 17th century during the Qing dynasty.

So Chinese ownership of Taiwan actually predates even the founding of the United States!

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

Is there an independence movement among the native population of Taiwan?

Otherwise I still can't see how there is any similarity. And Chinese rule of the island began all the way back in the 17th century during the Qing dynasty.

So Chinese ownership of Taiwan actually predates even the founding of the United States!

Yes, if it were not for laws forbidding the political movement and threats from China, Taiwan would have declared itself independent somewhere in the 90's already.

 

[dann]

How would you know? None of the numbers coming out of China are reliable. Not death tolls, not infection rates, not economic numbers, none of it.

It is an argument from ignorance. If you don't trust any Chinese numbers, you could ask The Chicago Council of Global Affairs, for instance:

The results show an overall satisfaction score of 39.2 out of 50, which again suggests that Chinese citizens’ satisfaction with the government’s response to the pandemic is very high.
What the survey also shows is that citizens’ satisfaction increases with the level of government they are asked to evaluate. While 67 percent of respondents give a score of 4 or 5 (“satisfied” and “very satisfied”) for information dissemination by the community or village level of government, the number rises to 70 percent for the county level of government, 74 percent for the city level, 77 percent for the provincial government, and a remarkable 89 percent for the national government.
What Do the Chinese Think about Their Government's Response to COVID-19? (The Chicago Council of Global Affairs, March 26, 2021)

You seem to forget that it matters if people have actual reason to be satisfied with the pandemic response of their government. It is a pattern that you see all over the world. Look at New Zealand or Iceland, for instance. Of course, it helps that neither of those countries seems to have a pandemic death cult akin to the Republicans in the USA.

 

[Boudicca90]

Yes, if it were not for laws forbidding the political movement and threats from China, Taiwan would have declared itself independent somewhere in the 90's already.

No, I meant is there an independence movement among the 'native' population, meaning its indigenous inhabitants prior to the Chinese.

Taiwanese indigenous peoples

They would be the equivalent of the Palestinians in this scenario. But I'm not the one trying to compare them in the first place.

 

[Ziggurat]

It is an argument from ignorance. If you don't trust any Chinese numbers, you could ask The Chicago Council of Global Affairs, for instance:

You misunderstand. I'm not saying the polling numbers about people's opinions are wrong. I'm saying that the numbers which people (both within China and here) are using to evaluate whether or not the CCP did a good job are not reliable. Sure, they're satisfied. But why are they satisfied? Because the CCP tells them that the death toll is low? Because the CCP tells them that the economy took a small hit? These are the things which aren't reliable.

You seem to forget that it matters if people have actual reason to be satisfied with the pandemic response of their government.

I haven't forgotten that. Rather, you have failed to realize that this is necessarily comparative. People evaluate what's going on compared to what they think either could have gone on, or to what's going on elsewhere. But if your sources of information are corrupted, that's going to corrupt your evaluation of the pandemic response.

And for most Chinese, their impression of how their government responded is going to be largely dictated by what that same government tells them about that response. Do you really not see why that basically invalidates public opinion as an accurate gauge of that response?

 

[Ziggurat]

You could honestly say the same thing about Florida and DeSantis.

They've been caught manipulating their numbers multiple times, yet I hear no outrage on the right over that.

No, you cannot say that about DeSantis. If you're referring to Rebekah Jones, she's a delusional fraud. You should have made that claim about New York and Cuomo, you would have had a better argument there.

 

[Ziggurat]

The difference is the Palestinian people are the native inhabitants of the land

Most people living in Taiwan today were born there. They do not want to be part of the PRC. Yet you want them to be. It's quite peculiar, this simping for dictators.

And my support or non-support of countries doesn't depend on whether or not I agree with their government.

Of course not. It only depends on whether or not they're antagonistic to the US. If they are, they've got your support.