China

[Hlafordlaes]

The main argument in favor of China's status quo is that prosperity and harmony are the maximum values to pursue in social policy. Overseas, one only hears of local situations involving public corruption or some such, and on the odd ocassion, of suicides by the overworked and gulags for Uyghers. On the ecology front, there are reports of large tree plantations to fight climate change, and then there are the undeniable photos of extreme pollution. China has a definite Potemkin feel, of major issues going unreported with a few scandals breaking through, as one might expect from any nation that size and with that population issuing so little major bad news. Nevertheless, as long as growth is on offer, it seems to be the same solution to all problems it is in the West, or anywhere. Revolutions and social upheaval require wars or scarcity, or coin wins, always.

So, biz as usual? Yes. In today's mercantile world of captive consumers, absolutely. Look how popular Dubai is with the poor man's jet set, slavery just a back alley away notwithstanding. What is a democratic revolutionary to do, but sit on ink-stained thumb and whine?

And why not? It's not like the Taiwan Strait is the Maginot Line, which if crossed in force triggers world war, given geopolitical conditions...scared "Nah," say the Left, model gazing at whatever nonsensical utopia is in fashion. "No way", says Europe, with Germany cozily exporting and counting coin. "Part of Chinese national territory," say French and Spaniards, leery of ever giving a breath of air to self-determination, wary of their own break-away regions. "Besides, the Chinese and Russians can take the Americans now, leading in hypersonic cruise missile technology," whisper others, so "why get your butt kicked again following Americans into a quagmire they are sure to leave you in."

Which is why, it would have been so nice, all these years, to realize that it was important to walk the talk,

• to show that the values of free enterprise, practiced with due diligence, and the harnessing of distributed decision-making yielded demonstrably better results over time, with honesty and integrity counting for something (accountability)
• that if the first principles underlying democracy are to be universal, nation-states must be based on communities of percieved shared interest, allowing more leeway for self-determination
• that if self-determination and sovereignty are not to be an escape route back into tyranny, that the rule of law must be based on the same first principles that underlie democracy and human rights
• that it would be nice if, say, originalists and fanboys of legalese would never confuse the deep errors in logic of the past with sacred precedent

But no, we got a vast increase in income disparity, an entire generation of useless war, thousands of returned troops who no longer have access to the only gravy train they've ever known and whose reasoning skills are hilarious, and political "discourse" fit for stone axe savages ("No masks!"). No wonder there is a Chinese hand comfortably placed in the US IP pocket, draining it to the last drop. Oops! Somebody just let their leaders third-world them like chumps, starting with Reagan (Mr. "I lost the US trade surplus for good"). ETA: So, can the US argue cogently for Taiwanese independence, with any credibility on the world stage? Some, say, for Japan and SK, but for most of the world, no way.

 

[Ziggurat]

After 4 years of Trump and the rise of fascism and white supremacism in this country

Oh please. If you don't hang out on Twitter, the country is much the same after Trump as it was before Trump.

That doesn't mean I would rather live in China, since I feel I have an obligation to continue serving my country, as stupid as that feeling is.

It's funny that you don't seem to care about China's, shall we say, not so progressive attitudes towards gender and gender nonconformity. As for racism, yeah, China is far more racist than the US. They aren't white supremacist, obviously, but they are very much Han supremacist.

You're a hypocrite.

 

[The Atheist]

...but they are very much Han supremacist.

That's a point that often gets completely overlooked.

They're completely racist, but muddy the water by being racist against people who can't be distinguished by sight.

 

[The Atheist]

Meanwhile, expect more shenanigans to break out on the China-India border as talks fail to find a settlement suitable to both sides.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/10/11/india-china-army-talks-border-tensions-ladakh

 

[Boudicca90]

Oh please. If you don't hang out on Twitter, the country is much the same after Trump as it was before Trump.

Only if you live in a bubble with no contact with the rest of the country.

It's funny that you don't seem to care about China's, shall we say, not so progressive attitudes towards gender and gender nonconformity. As for racism, yeah, China is far more racist than the US. They aren't white supremacist, obviously, but they are very much Han supremacist.

You're a hypocrite.

You are right that Chinese society tends to be very conservative, ethnocentric, and even xenophobic at times. And I absolutely criticize them on these fronts. But these are traits of Chinese society in general, it has little to do with what government is in charge.

These are also traits that many of their neighbors also have. Japanese society is not that different.

 

[Ziggurat]

Only if you live in a bubble with no contact with the rest of the country.

Twitter isn't the rest of the country.

You are right that Chinese society tends to be very conservative, ethnocentric, and even xenophobic at times. And I absolutely criticize them on these fronts. But these are traits of Chinese society in general, it has little to do with what government is in charge.

The CCP is playing into existing cultural norms, but they absolutely have a role here in further encouraging it. For example:
https://www.npr.org/2021/09/02/1033687586/china-ban-effeminate-men-tv-official-morality

 

[Boudicca90]

I am certainly worried about this, and hope it doesn't lead to more bigotry against the LGBTQ+ in China.

I don't agree with them on this at all, but it's their culture and their country.

 

[Ziggurat]

I am certainly worried about this, and hope it doesn't lead to more bigotry against the LGBTQ+ in China.

I don't agree with them on this at all, but it's their culture and their country.

That's a copout. I think the truth is that you think your criticism of China won't do anything, but you think your criticism of the US might do something.

But the net effect of that asymmetry perversely favors the worst actors. As Orwell said regarding pacifists during WW2:

Pacifism is objectively pro-fascist. This is elementary common sense. If you hamper the war effort of one side, you automatically help out that of the other. Nor is there any real way of remaining outside such a war as the present one. In practice, 'he that is not with me is against me'.​

We aren't in military conflict with China (and again, I don't want to be), but we are in conflict with them.

 

[Boudicca90]

That's a copout. I think the truth is that you think your criticism of China won't do anything, but you think your criticism of the US might do something.

Both, actually. They have a different culture than we do and it's not my place to get involved, but also I have no say in China while I do here in my own country.

But the net effect of that asymmetry perversely favors the worst actors. As Orwell said regarding pacifists during WW2:

Pacifism is objectively pro-fascist. This is elementary common sense. If you hamper the war effort of one side, you automatically help out that of the other. Nor is there any real way of remaining outside such a war as the present one. In practice, 'he that is not with me is against me'.​

We aren't in military conflict with China (and again, I don't want to be), but we are in conflict with them.

Again, you say you don't want war, but all your speech does so far is push us towards that direction.

I'm certainly not a pacifist (I admit I used to be, but enlisting during wartime has a way of changing that), but Orwell was wrong here. The true pro-fascist tactic is appeasement.

Conservatives and liberals enable fascism by letting it flourish. By allowing fascist ideas to spread in the first place. But China isn't a fascist country, so I don't see your point here. They are certainly state capitalist, which is why I'm hopeful for Xi's reforms when it comes to the economy.

 

[Ziggurat]

Both, actually. They have a different culture than we do and it's not my place to get involved

Criticizing them here is not really "getting involved".

Again, you say you don't want war, but all your speech does so far is push us towards that direction.

You seem to think this forum is rather more important than it actually is.

But what exactly do you think I've even advocated here? So far, supporting Taiwan is the only real policy recommendation I've made. But as we've seen, that support hasn't led to war even over decades. It has likely prevented war.

I'm certainly not a pacifist (I admit I used to be, but enlisting during wartime has a way of changing that), but Orwell was wrong here. The true pro-fascist tactic is appeasement.

You want to appease China.

Conservatives and liberals enable fascism by letting it flourish. By allowing fascist ideas to spread in the first place. But China isn't a fascist country, so I don't see your point here. They are certainly state capitalist, which is why I'm hopeful for Xi's reforms when it comes to the economy.

It's not fascism if it's not from the Fascia region of Italy? Whatever distinction you're trying to draw between China's oppressive dictatorship and whatever you think "true fascism" is don't actually matter.

 

[theprestige]

Again, you say you don't want war, but all your speech does so far is push us towards that direction.

You understand that a deterrent has to be credible in order to be effective, right? Nobody has ever deterred war by convincing their opponent that they didn't want war. On the other hand, wars have often been prevented by convincing one's opponent that one is absolutely willing to deliver more war than anybody would ever ask for, if their opponent keeps pushing.

 

[Boudicca90]

You understand that a deterrent has to be credible in order to be effective, right? Nobody has ever deterred war by convincing their opponent that they didn't want war. On the other hand, wars have often been prevented by convincing one's opponent that one is absolutely willing to deliver more war than anybody would ever ask for, if their opponent keeps pushing.

Wars or conflicts shouldn't be threatened or even suggested unless there is a valid reason to. And there currently isn't a valid reason right now.

China certainly likes to push buttons, and I can see conflicts arising from that. But we should see China as a potential ally and not as a threat. Especially since we need their cooperation on important matters like reducing carbon emissions and increasing renewable energy.

 

[Ziggurat]

Wars or conflicts shouldn't be threatened or even suggested unless there is a valid reason to. And there currently isn't a valid reason right now.

China regularly and openly threatens war. Go bitch to them, not us.

China certainly likes to push buttons, and I can see conflicts arising from that. But we should see China as a potential ally and not as a threat.

That is bloody ******* stupid. China is not a potential ally. You can compromise with an enemy, but you cannot turn an enemy into a friend unless you can remove the conflict of interests. But that is impossible with China. The interests of the CCP are in direct conflict with our interests. The differences are not reconcilable.

Especially since we need their cooperation on important matters like reducing carbon emissions and increasing renewable energy.

Bwahahahahaha!

Yeah, no. It isn't in the CCP's interest to reduce their carbon emissions. So they aren't going to.

 

[Boudicca90]

You can consider China an enemy all you want. I don't and never have.

Luckily we have a President now who doesn't see things your way.

And it is in everyone's interest, since the economic effects of doing nothing will be far more expensive than trying to reduce our global impact on the climate now.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

China has PTSD from the time of European colonialism, and it is kept alive by a narrative that is helpful to The Party.
Chinese belligerence should be seen as the delayed reaction to the Opium wars, second world war with Japan etc.
It's the reaction of a victim that feels the need to become an oppressor to rid itself of a past feeling of helplessness.
US policy in the region needs to focus on supporting allies, not on confronting China directly until Beijing gets its mental **** together.

 

[Ziggurat]

You can consider China an enemy all you want. I don't and never have.

Luckily we have a President now who doesn't see things your way.

And it is in everyone's interest, since the economic effects of doing nothing will be far more expensive than trying to reduce our global impact on the climate now.

Wake up. China isn’t going to reduce its global impact. They have no interest in doing so. And we cannot get it to either.

 

[theprestige]

China has PTSD from the time of European colonialism, and it is kept alive by a narrative that is helpful to The Party.
Chinese belligerence should be seen as the delayed reaction to the Opium wars, second world war with Japan etc.
It's the reaction of a victim that feels the need to become an oppressor to rid itself of a past feeling of helplessness.
US policy in the region needs to focus on supporting allies, not on confronting China directly until Beijing gets its mental **** together.

Of course. The Chinese government isn't comprised of human beings with intelligence and agency. It's all just a cell culture grown on a hundred year old substrate. How dare we antagonize the mindless shoggoth of East Asia?

 

[Ziggurat]

China has PTSD from the time of European colonialism, and it is kept alive by a narrative that is helpful to The Party.
Chinese belligerence should be seen as the delayed reaction to the Opium wars, second world war with Japan etc.
It's the reaction of a victim that feels the need to become an oppressor to rid itself of a past feeling of helplessness.
US policy in the region needs to focus on supporting allies, not on confronting China directly until Beijing gets its mental **** together.

The CCP will never get its mental **** together. That’s something dictatorships are incapable of. This is the country that banned Winnie the Pooh. Sanity won’t return to government until the CCP is gone. Which likely won’t be in my lifetime, I’m sad to say.

 

[Ziggurat]

Of course. The Chinese government isn't comprised of human beings with intelligence and agency. It's all just a cell culture grown on a hundred year old substrate. How dare we antagonize the mindless shoggoth of East Asia?

I don’t know, mindless shoggoths seems like a fairly apt description of communists.

 

[Orphia Nay]

Wake up. China isn’t going to reduce its global impact. They have no interest in doing so. And we cannot get it to either.

You should have at least Googled before saying anything like that.

For example: in China "in 2019, renewable sources provided 26% of its electricity generation[8]—compared to 17% in the U.S.A.[9]"

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_energy_in_China

And

China aims to plant trees across an area larger than Belgium each year to increase its forests.
The mass planting is part of the country's strategy to bring carbon emissions to net zero by 2060.
By the end of 2025, 24.1 per cent of China's land will be covered by forest, according to officials.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08...ee-planting-to-increase-its-forests/100395780