Texas bans abortion.

[Olmstead]

nonetheless, I think can be argued that we shouldn't treat them like they would prefer death.

Does anyone here wish they had been aborted as a fetus/zygote/embryo? I doubt it.

That wasn't me. Not yet. It was but an empty vessel. It experienced nothing, knew nothing, so how could it house a soul?

 

[Beelzebuddy]

That is a massive strawman, and a big, fat ******* lie!

There is not one person in this thread who supports "unfettered abortion rights"

I do. And psion10 does as well, he said so earlier in the thread before resetting back to "how dare you accuse me of being a religious nutter just because I'm holding the door open for religious nutters!"

 

[Warp12]

Oh, please...don't for a moment grab on to my response as justification for your sexist, bigoted, patriarchal support of a regressive law that is essentially an attempt to "keep women in their place."

Support of what law?

 

[Warp12]

Is it? Your messed up rules caused a woman and child to both die. And you do not care. Just another "splitail". So that does not count, right? And the kid? Died. You don't care either. Holy religious reasons made both die. End of.

It is as if you are merely pretending to care, for religious reasons.

Can you translate this, please? I'm not religious; I keep telling you that.

 

[Warp12]

That is a massive strawman, and a big, fat ******* lie!

There is not one person in this thread who supports "unfettered abortion rights"

You must have missed a lot of pages.

 

[psionl0]

I do. And psion10 does as well, he said so earlier in the thread before resetting back to "how dare you accuse me of being a religious nutter just because I'm holding the door open for religious nutters!"

You won't find a single post of mine that says either of these things but facts don't matter in this thread.

 

[smartcooky]

Well..there may be a couple. I am one, I think a woman has a right to terminate her pregnancy at any point for any reason. I'm just weird that way in thinking a person should have control over their own medical decisions.

"Unfettered" he said. Look it up

A married/partnered woman still with the father, is about to drop; 40 weeks into a pregnancy.

Would you support her right to, for no reason, or on a whim, off her own bat (no consultation with the father or a doctor) abort the fetus when there is no valid medical or financial reason to do so? This is what is meant by "unfettered" - There have been no issues in the marriage or with the pregnancy, and yet she decides, for no reason, that she does not want to give birth. She would literally be allowed to walk into a clinic under those circumstances, and demand and get an abortion. You would support this, 100%, without question?

 

[Reformed Offlian]

Neither are 'aardvark', 'hippopotamus', 'sewer', 'antidisestablishmentarianism' or indeed 'god'.

Nor "guns" or "firearms".

 

[Beelzebuddy]

"Unfettered" he said. Look it up

A married woman still with the father, is about to drop; 40 weeks into a pregnancy.

Would you support her right to, for no reason, or on a whim, off her own bat (no consultation with the father or a doctor) abort the fetus when there is no valid medical or financial reason to do so? This is what is meant by "unfettered" - There have been no issues in the marriage or with the pregnancy, and yet she decides, for no reason, that she does not want to give birth. She would literally be allowed to walk into a clinic under those circumstances, and demand and get an abortion. You would support this, 100%, without question?

You wouldn't? Exactly how much of that is your personal business, then?

Setting aside the fact that it's still a nonsentient lump of tissue and I'd support the woman's decision regardless, no one is going to do that, carrying a baby to full term but deciding to abort it at the last minute, without a damn good reason. Just because you don't know the reason doesn't mean you need to.

 

[smartcooky]

You wouldn't? Exactly how much of that is your personal business, then?

Setting aside the fact that it's still a nonsentient lump of tissue and I'd support the woman's decision regardless, no one is going to do that, carrying a baby to full term but deciding to abort it at the last minute, without a damn good reason. Just because you don't know the reason doesn't mean you need to.

I said there was no reason, not that I didn't know what it was.

What if the woman is having temporary psychological episode. Still OK? Walk in, no questions asked, straight onto the operating table and out it comes? You're OK with this?

I'm and making sure that you understand what "unfettered" means.

 

[Warbler]

No I don't. It values faith over reality.

The line values faith, but values it over reality? don't know.

Faith is merely sticking a flag in the ground and declaring I'm believing in this. A logical and skeptical mind follows the facts even if they contradict its preconceptions.

I think faith is more than just sticking a flag in the ground and declaring I believe this. But I agree it does mean believing even if contradicted by the preponderance of the evidence.

Why is it profound and special?

I am not sure how to describe it to you. I think faith is believing with the heart, rather than the head.

Every single person peddling religion when cornered goes to faith as a justification for believing in the unprovable and unfalsifiable.

I don't "peddle" religion. I don't think religion is something to be peddled like salesperson would peddle whatever he/she is selling. Yes, it can and has been used as a reason to believe is something that is not provable and that can be shown to be false. Of just because something is unprovable and unfalsifiable, not does not automatically make that something, untrue.

But "faith is not a reliable method for determining anything. One can just as easily believe in something false as something true based on their faith.

I suppose one could use faith to justify believing in something false. It could also be used to justify believing is something that is true even when the preponderance of the evidence says otherwise. Sometimes the preponderance of the evidence can add up to the wrong conclusion.

No, you didn't. But the quote is from a movie justifying faith. In that case, a belief in Santa Claus which you agree is not real. Another example of how faith can be used to believe in the unreal.

but I was not using the line to justify believing in Santa.

That's exactly the church I attended for much of my youth. Beats the hell out of the absolutely insane Baptist church I attended in my late teens.

Yes, much of what the the Baptist Churches teach are too extreme for me, especially the ones that believe in Kink James Onlyism(that only the King James Version of the Bible is the true word of God)

I don't believe the Bible is 100 percent false. I'm sure there are some things it gets right. There is philosophy taught in the New Testament which I believe to be wonderful. There are some great lessons in the Bible that I rely on to this day. But when it comes to facts and reality, there is little of anything that is true and a lot that is downright awful.

I am more a New Testament guy myself. But think there is more true things in the OT than you do. It mentions countries/leaders/events that historians agree are true

As for there being a God. I see absolutely no evidence that a God created the universe. There is however evidence that man created God. Actually, thousands of them.

Can you prove that there is no God, that God did not create the universe. I agree if you look at it from a purely logical and scientific perspective, one would not conclude that God existed, not that God created the universe. But If I can not prove that there is no God, that God did not create the universe, then there is that possibility that it is true and that is were faith can come it. I agree it is neither logical or scientific, but there it is.

Almost nothing In the book of Genesis, the Pentateuch or the entire Old Testament that is true or valuable.

What about the ten commandments? surely rules like:

Thou shalt not kill.

Thou shalt not commit adultery.

Thou shalt not steal.

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

There are locations that certainly existed, but so what? Spiderman takes place in New York City. Just because NYC is real doesn't mean Spidey is real. Noah and the Ark is absurd, so is Jonah and the Whale. This is tip of the iceberg when it comes to factual absurdities.

There more than just true locations mentioned in the OT, it also mentions historic leaders and nations and events that occurred. I can certainly understand how one might see Noah and the Ark and Jonah and the Whale as absurd. They may well not be literally true.

Do you believe in Moses? There is no archeological evidence of Moses or the mass enslavement and exodus of Jewish people from Egypt let alone the parting of the Red Sea.

does the archeological evidence prove there was no Moses and no parting of the Red Sea?

I was taught that the first five books of the Bible or Pentateuch was written by Moses. This is ridiculous based on that Moses had no reason to know any of that but from passed down stories told around the campfires at night.

And sometimes stories passed down around around campfires can be true, or exaggerated with some truth in them however small, and sometimes they can be wrong. But, if you talking about events that occurred before a people could write things down, stores passed from one person telling another is the best you have.

That's the point. My beliefs are not based on my wishes. They are based on reality and open to revision.

You have the right to base your believes on what you choose to. I choose to base some of my beliefs on my faith.

Especially when some pasty face pastor says that abortion is a sin or murder. What's absolutely bizarre about their claim is that is quite challenging to even justify their position biblically.

Yes, it might well be difficult to base a claim that abortion is sin or murder on the bible. I try not to do that.

 

[RecoveringYuppy]

I'm and making sure that you understand what "unfettered" means.

There are some unreasonable people twisting words in this thread to make their point. But note that those of us who aren't doing that should still be allowed to use the reasonable meaning of words. People who say they support unfettered access to abortion would not normally be understood to be saying that they want to completely bypass a doctors opinion. The phrase "unfettered access to abortion" should be understood to mean unfettered access to a proper medical process including all the necessary consultation with a doctor. Your argument shouldn't be with the people who say they would support unfettered access to abortion, it should be with the people who try to interpret it as wildly as you are interpreting it now.

 

[smartcooky]

There are some unreasonable people twisting words in this thread to make their point. But note that those of us who aren't doing that should still be allowed to use the reasonable meaning of words. People who say they support unfettered access to abortion would not normally be understood to be saying that they want to completely bypass a doctors opinion. The phrase "unfettered access to abortion" should be understood to mean unfettered access to a proper medical process including all the necessary consultation with a doctor. Your argument shouldn't be with the people who say they would support unfettered access to abortion, it should be with the people who try to interpret it as wildly as you are interpreting it now.

After seeing his body of work, I am 100% certain that this is not what Warp12 means.

When I was in the throes of the spilt up with my narcissistic ex, she denied me access to things in the house that belong to me (all part of her controlling nature). I was finally able to get a court order to grant me "unfettered access" to the house in order to recover my property. I turned up at the house with a couple of people to help me, showed her the court order and she defied it and refused me access. I went down to local Police station, showed them the order and told them what had happened. They accompanied me back to the house, and she more or less tried to tell the cops that it did not apply to her and she wasn't going to let me in. After some more to and fro, one of the cops finally pulled her to one side and read the court order to her. I remember almost verbatim what he said

"See this bit where it says the court grants him unfettered access to the home into order to recover his property?". She replied "Yes". Then he asked "do you understand what unfettered means; well I will tell you. It means you will stand aside and remain silent. I means if you do anything to prevent him from executing the terms of this order, I will arrest you, put you in handcuffs and place you in the back of the police car, then I will take you back to the police station and charge you with violating an order of the court.. do you understand?". A very meek "yes" was the reply.

That is how I understand "unfettered"... literally to mean totally unrestricted, no questions, no baulking, no obstruction, ... "resistance is futile"!

 

[Beelzebuddy]

I said there was no reason, not that I didn't know what it was.

What if the woman is having temporary psychological episode. Still OK? Walk in, no questions asked, straight onto the operating table and out it comes? You're OK with this?

I'm and making sure that you understand what "unfettered" means.

Well if you're insisting on hypotheticals, then hypothetically speaking, it's still none of your damn business, nor any of mine.

 

[RecoveringYuppy]

After seeing his body of work, I am 100% certain that this is not what Warp12 means.

Then argue with him.

 

[Warp12]

This is the classic false dichotomy that pervades this thread. Either you support unfettered abortion rights or you are a religious nut.

Lots of people support some restrictions - especially in the later stages of pregnancy - for non religious reasons.

That is a massive strawman, and a big, fat ******* lie!

There is not one person in this thread who supports "unfettered abortion rights"

After seeing his body of work, I am 100% certain that this is not what Warp12 means.

I think you need to focus on what "Psion" means, as you seem to have taken up the issue with him. Warp12 understands what "unfettered" means, and also what "pedantic" means.

 

[thaiboxerken]

"Unfettered" he said. Look it up

A married/partnered woman still with the father, is about to drop; 40 weeks into a pregnancy.

Would you support her right to, for no reason, or on a whim, off her own bat (no consultation with the father or a doctor) abort the fetus when there is no valid medical or financial reason to do so? This is what is meant by "unfettered" - There have been no issues in the marriage or with the pregnancy, and yet she decides, for no reason, that she does not want to give birth. She would literally be allowed to walk into a clinic under those circumstances, and demand and get an abortion. You would support this, 100%, without question?

Yes.

 

[smartcooky]

I think you need to focus on what "Psion" means, as you seem to have taken up the issue with him. Warp12 understands what "unfettered" means, and also what "pedantic" means.

I apologise. I hadn't realised there were people here so ludicrously extreme.

I am not with them. I support the provisions of Roe v Wade, but I do not support rights as absolute in the example I posted in #3657 and #3670.

 

[psionl0]

I apologise. I hadn't realised there were people here so ludicrously extreme.

I am not with them. I support the provisions of Roe v Wade, but I do not support rights as absolute in the example I posted in #3657 and #3670.

I guess that this means that you "support some restrictions - especially in the later stages of pregnancy - for non religious reasons".

That is a reasonable position to take.

 

[thaiboxerken]

I apologise. I hadn't realised there were people here so ludicrously extreme.

I am not with them. I support the provisions of Roe v Wade, but I do not support rights as absolute in the example I posted in #3657 and #3670.

I support unfettered abortion rights because it's none of anyone's business why a woman wants to terminate her pregnancy unless she wants to defer some of that power to another person. It is her medical condition and no one else.