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The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part II

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Kid Eager said:
As usual, your ability to quote correctly has suffered deformation. Nice quote mine, though.

Here’s the actual quote:
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Re the latter paragraph, this is something the journalist has dug up from old news. Just because Helsinki Uni did not pick up a seismic event on 27-28 Sept, doesn't mean it did not happen. Seismic is to do with earth tremors. It picked up K-141 Kursk strongly because that was a MASSIVE explosion and the submarine was rested on the seabed. This is how the nordic nations knew of the accident and offered to help, something the Russians normally prefer to keep shtum about.
 
Vixen said:
It wasn't me who said the ship heaved, it was Linde, who described it as the ship rising upwards. Linde lied a lot but where did he get that from?
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I know it will sound crazy, but is it just possible that a wave caused the ship to heave at about that moment? As I recall, there were a lot of big waves around at the time.
 
Vixen said:
As I understand it, the German Group of Experts are claiming damage consistent with explosives can be seen at the side lock areas of the bow visor, so outwith the car deck but inside the bow visor.
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Are you Scottish?
 
Jack by the hedge said:
No, I don't think it's normal but you keep telling us they did it anyway. How would you have done it? Why would they know someone was bound to tip the Russians off?
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Because prior to the fall of the Soviet Union, Estonia was a part of the USSR. Soviet tactics had been to populate the Baltic States with...ethnic Russians. Hence, 25% of the population are Russian and likewise, the ruling class. You want to get on pre 1991? You go to a Naval School...in Russia (as did Captain Andresson). Thus when the Soviet Union fell, the native Estonians - who naturally fostered a lot of resentment towards their oppressors - couldn't wait to kick them out and to clip their wings. However, much of the Estonian ruling classes were still loyal towards their old masters, especially the military. And they hadn't forgotten how Sweden had shipped them back to their deaths whilst seeking desperate refuge from an angry vengeful Red mob post WWII.

The Estonian head of defense Hermann Simm, turned out to be a Russian spy selling secrets to the Russians and jailed for high treason in 1996. JAIC star witness, Silver Linde was jailed in Finland for drug smuggling. When Sweden smuggled Former Soviet Union materiel and space progs out of Estonia on a passenger ferry, given most of the crew were Estonian, of course, someone was watching and reporting back to the old stalinists.
 
Vixen said:
It wasn't me who said the ship heaved, it was Linde, who described it as the ship rising upwards. Linde lied a lot but where did he get that from?
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You cite Linde variously as the authority for some observation that demands explanation and as a liar whose testimony should be disbelieved. What criteria are you using to determine when Linde is lying and when he's telling the truth?
 
LondonJohn said:
Jeeeeez. Even if there had been an explosion (there wasn't), and even if that explosion had happened "outside of the car deck" (it didn't, because there was no explosion).....

.....this wouldn't have caused anything more than the very slightest deviation in the sea at surface- or subsurface-level.

Prior to - and immediately following - the failure of the bow opening, the ship was being thrown around that night because (and only because)..... the ship was sailing through extremely bad weather, and being affected by the combination of ocean swells, waves, and high winds.

And once the bow opening had been breached, causing seawater to flood into the vehicle deck and gravitate quickly to the lowest-leaning side(s) of the vessel, this (coupled with the continuation of the motion pointed out in the previous paragraph) would have further destabilised the ship and thrown its occupants around/off their feet/out of bed/etc.
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It was not 'extremely bad weather' it was normal bad weather for that time of the year. In addition, ocean swells cannot reach the Baltic Sea.

Another false premise leading to erroneous conclusions.
 
LondonJohn said:
Oh good. We're now in new depths of pitiful.


(And the implications of this fresh rationalisation are interesting: either a) this alleged "expert" is so sloppy that he allowed a magnitude-10 error to affect what would - had he meant "7000" - have been a claim of huge significance; or b) the alleged "expert" stated 700 because he meant 700 - which is to say that his claim in this respect is of little or no relevance.)
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Actually, he probably did mean 700°C. Just because a mig welder gets to 6,000°C, it doesn't mean the metal it is cutting does.. The melting point of steel is about 1,500°C and safe to say you'd have to hold your flame there a long time before that happens. What Braidwood's experts were pointing out was that the metal itself had to reach a temperature of 700°C before it deformed to that level. Not the flipping flame, which of course is hot.
 
Vixen said:
Actually, he probably did mean 700°C. Just because a mig welder gets to 6,000°C, it doesn't mean the metal it is cutting does.. The melting point of steel is about 1,500°C and safe to say you'd have to hold your flame there a long time before that happens.
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How much experience have you had with oxy-acetylene torches?
 
JayUtah said:
And with another thing. What was that thing? Do you remember, or is this yet another part of the discussion about which we have to constantly remind you?



You argued that it would be impossible for the metal to reach that temperature except in a laboratory. You don't know what you're talking about.
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No, Braidwood's point was that of course metals can reach these temperatures but highly unlikely outside of a laboratory. A standard house fire can reach 1,500°C yet steel bearings and reinforced safes will withstand it.
 
Vixen said:
No, Braidwood's point was that of course metals can reach these temperatures but highly unlikely outside of a laboratory.
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So all welding is done in a laboratory?

What about the other question I asked in my post? Recite the high points of the discussion we already had on that point.
 
GlennB said:
I know it will sound crazy, but is it just possible that a wave caused the ship to heave at about that moment? As I recall, there were a lot of big waves around at the time.
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Quote re Linde:

in his last testimony on 25.01.96 - the noise was remarkable and not typical for ship/wave contact and he had never heard it before or thereafter, which is actually in agreement with what 3rd engineer Margus Treu had said from the beginning, although had always mentioned at least 2 extraordinary bangs not caused by wave impact.
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EFD

Linde had been at sea ten years as of the date of the disaster. So he should at least know the difference between a wave and a bang and likewise the type of motion caused by same.
 
Vixen said:
You've got it - I picked this up from the Scots, who have some jolly good expressions, ye ken?
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Then you need to put it down again. It's an absurd affectation that just makes you sound pompous.
 
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