The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part II

[Jack by the hedge]

No. If the explosive device was on the bow visor it would be outwith the car deck not inside it.

Outside the ship or inside the ship?

 

[Kid Eager]

Here is the relevant press release:

As usual, your ability to quote correctly has suffered deformation. Nice quote mine, though.

Here’s the actual quote:

Westermann told daily Postimees that: "One of the most interesting findings was that very different micro-structures were observed within a distance of just a few centimeters from one another."

"There are parts where the material has not been deformed or impacted," Westermann said, adding that traces of solidified material had been found in those zones where the metal had been impacted.

At the same time, this need not inconclusively prove an explosion happened. Seismograms of two Finnish seismic stations from the time of the MS Estonia's sinking, i.e from the evening of September 27 to the morning of September 28 do not show anything out of the ordinary, BNS reports.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Linde never claimed the bang was inside the car deck.

Only the ramp was between him and the blast. The bomb you imagine to have been big enough to make the ship heave would need to have been huge.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

The Russians have never admitted to either the Skirpal or the poisioned ex-spy incident. But the message has been received...?

Obviously. What's your point, exactly?

 

[LondonJohn]

On a ship, really? In the middle of the sea, when you need a constant power supply?

Do you seriously actually believe that, when someone reports that an as-yet-unspecified part of the bow visor shows signs of having been exposed to heat of at least 1200 celsius.....

.....that this means the heat exposure must have occurred on the night of the sinking? As opposed to, for instance, six months (or six years) previously when the ship was undergoing dockside running repairs?


Wow.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Erm, you think it is normal to load the stolen military equipment of a hostile foreign power onto a passenger ferry?

Suppose MI5 ordered London Transport to carry smuggled out ISIS materiel and equipment on the tube?

Especially when you know someone is bound to tip them off.

"Shut gob, pin back lug'oles and put t'brain in gear" ~ Yorkshire homily

No, I don't think it's normal but you keep telling us they did it anyway. How would you have done it? Why would they know someone was bound to tip the Russians off?

 

[junkshop]

I was commenting on your claim that temperatures of over 700°C can only be achieved in a laboratory, and you know it. Please stop making nonsense claims that are so easy to refute. They make you look stupid, desperate, or both.

I was quoting the opinion of the German Expert Group.

No Vixen, you were not. Here is the post in question:

To even get to temperatures above 700°C artificially you need to be in a laboratory. There is no way 'welding' would cause the type of deformation as seen here. Professor Westermann was being purely descriptive and was not giving an opinion as all she did was microscopically examine the bow visor for deformations and its type.

You shouldn't lie, it doesn't help your arguments.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Here is the relevant press release:

Which doesn't tell you what part was examined.

 

[LondonJohn]

Linde said he heard the bang outside of the car deck.

Jeeeeez. Even if there had been an explosion (there wasn't), and even if that explosion had happened "outside of the car deck" (it didn't, because there was no explosion).....

.....this wouldn't have caused anything more than the very slightest deviation in the sea at surface- or subsurface-level.

Prior to - and immediately following - the failure of the bow opening, the ship was being thrown around that night because (and only because)..... the ship was sailing through extremely bad weather, and being affected by the combination of ocean swells, waves, and high winds.

And once the bow opening had been breached, causing seawater to flood into the vehicle deck and gravitate quickly to the lowest-leaning side(s) of the vessel, this (coupled with the continuation of the motion pointed out in the previous paragraph) would have further destabilised the ship and thrown its occupants around/off their feet/out of bed/etc.

 

[LondonJohn]

The Expedition that took place in July 2021 has now released its videos and will release more. Its stated aim is:

As per the procurement of Estonian Safety Investigation Bureau, ROV surveys were conducted at the wrecksite of m/s Estonia on 14th and 15th of July 2021. The goal was to verify objects and images found with the sonar survey.

Here are a few shots of the starboard rupture.

The ROV has captured some of the geology nearby. In particular a 'red granite rock', which is a little ahead of it.

It also took shots of the car ramp and some of the car deck. It shows the deformations in the car ramp stiffeners and indicates they are consistent with damage from the bow visor forepeak.

This seems to be a reasonable approach to take.

Assumptions:

• the 22m x 4m rupture in the starboad was caused by impact with the red granite rock
• the deformations apparent on the car ramp was caused by the bow visor forepeak as it came loose

They will need to do the calculations as to whether the assumptions hold true and if not, to look at alternative explanations.

Exactly as I and many others in this thread have been explicitly pointing out to you for some time now.......

 

[LondonJohn]

Perhaps the 700 was a typo by Braidwood and he meant 7000.

Oh good. We're now in new depths of pitiful.


(And the implications of this fresh rationalisation are interesting: either a) this alleged "expert" is so sloppy that he allowed a magnitude-10 error to affect what would - had he meant "7000" - have been a claim of huge significance; or b) the alleged "expert" stated 700 because he meant 700 - which is to say that his claim in this respect is of little or no relevance.)

 

[LondonJohn]

Outside the ship or inside the ship?

Don't you mean to write "outwith the ship"?

(Obviously the use of "outwith" confers a great deal more intellect and gravitas than simply writing "outside".... )

 

[GlennB]

Oh good. We're now in new depths of pitiful.


(And the implications of this fresh rationalisation are interesting: either a) this alleged "expert" is so sloppy that he allowed a magnitude-10 error to affect what would - had he meant "7000" - have been a claim of huge significance; or b) the alleged "expert" stated 700 because he meant 700 - which is to say that his claim in this respect is of little or no relevance.)

It's also a reflection on Vixen's scientific illiteracy that she should report the 700 figure as if it could possibly be true. Very odd for someone who is 'good at physics'.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Don't you mean to write "outwith the ship"?



(Obviously the use of "outwith" confers a great deal more intellect and gravitas than simply writing "outside".... )

Oh, yeah, sorry. Respect for the victims and all that. Outwith the ship.

Wot I reckon is it was a within job.

 

[JayUtah]

To even get to temperatures above 700°C artificially you need to be in a laboratory. There is no way 'welding' would cause the type of deformation as seen here.

How much heavy welding is required for an accountant's charter?

 

[Vixen]

Firstly, stop twisting what I actually said into something different so you can criticise it. I didn't claim the Soviets accepted the blame for sinking the Hansa. I said they screwed up. Which they did. I didn't say they targeted the Hansa, I said they targeted the ship. Which they did. It wasn't a ship they should have attacked. So again, you're changing what I actually said in order to find something to complain about.

And I didn't say the Russians *should* kill the smugglers, but clearly we both think they absolutely *would*. And why do you think it unlikely that they would go to Estonia and bluff their way aboard the Estonia? How else do you propose they planted the bomb you imagine they used?

Do I think killing the smugglers would stop them smuggling? Yes, I do. Do you think they would continue from the afterlife? And I also think it would send a pretty vivid message to their co-conspirators. Do you disagree?

I disagree. If the smugglers are a sovereign state, then it doesn't matter if you bump off an operative here or there.

Russia can't go to Estonia and bluff their way around as it is no longer their country. Russia has no power in Estonia, just as it has no power to bluff its way into England to demand X,Y or Z.

 

[Vixen]

How amusing.

Where is this supposed set of responsibilities stated? You were happy enough to hide behind the professor to attribute a claim of explosives when it suited you.

For your latest version of the claim, was she a subject matter expert to not?

I think the claim is that the bow visor was never properly examined. Or maybe it was, because it seems the results done by VTT are 'confidential' so never found its way to the JAIC report. In any case, as Brian Braidwood points out, residual chemicals from explosives dissolve out in water after two days (cf TWA800) which is why he had his panels tested for deformation instead.

 

[Vixen]

Outside the ship or inside the ship?

As I understand it, the German Group of Experts are claiming damage consistent with explosives can be seen at the side lock areas of the bow visor, so outwith the car deck but inside the bow visor.

 

[JayUtah]

...the metal they examined was consistent with a detonation or a temperature over 700°C.

And with another thing. What was that thing? Do you remember, or is this yet another part of the discussion about which we have to constantly remind you?

The fact that you know of something that reaches this temperature is a non-sequitur.

You argued that it would be impossible for the metal to reach that temperature except in a laboratory. You don't know what you're talking about.

 

[JayUtah]

Here is a US Navy firing exercise, an old ship is hit with several types of missile. notice the size of the blast.
Only the torpedo at the end makes the ship move an appreciable amount. Look at the blast and extent of the damage.

ex-USS Rentz. My brother-in-law was the quartermaster and then the navigator on this ship. Obviously not during this exercise.