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Discussion: Transwomen are not women (Part 7)

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Several posts moved to AAH.

Please keep to the topic of the thread, and please keep it civil.

Thank you.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: zooterkin
 
It would make it easier for some in this discussion, and harder for others. There's a very good reason* why we haven't been able to agree on male/female as a clearly defined constant. It's been proposed and dismissed more than once already.

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*I.e., a reason that confers rhetorical advantage to one side in the debate.
Male/female is a clearly defined biological constant though? If anyone is choosing to ignore that reality then their they're making their own. Are they religious or something?
 
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Male/female is a clearly defined biological constant though?
Female placental mammals are typically born with a clutch of gametes already produced, which makes them readily distinguable from everyone else (i.e. male and intersex individuals).

ETA: I assume you're asking rhetorically, but still it's worth pointing out that the concept of "female" isn't fuzzy at the edges in our species.
 
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Male/female is a clearly defined biological constant though? If anyone is choosing to ignore that reality then their they're making their own. Are they religious or something?

There's a portion of the genderist movement that believe that gender subsumes sex, and that sex is socially constructed, or that sex is a spectrum and male and female aren't well defined. There are some that put forth the notion that gender identity alters sex, or that their apparent sex is incorrect because their brain is somehow that of the opposite sex or a 'different' sex.

Not technically religious, but certainly belief-based.
 
There's a portion of the genderist movement that believe that gender subsumes sex, and that sex is socially constructed, or that sex is a spectrum and male and female aren't well defined. There are some that put forth the notion that gender identity alters sex, or that their apparent sex is incorrect because their brain is somehow that of the opposite sex or a 'different' sex.

Not technically religious, but certainly belief-based.

I think I might have stated my position regarding the (in my opinion) variable that is gender before.

Be whatever gender, or absence of, that you feel happy with and I'll treat you accordingly.
You can't change your sex though.
 
Male/female is a clearly defined biological constant though? If anyone is choosing to ignore that reality then their they're making their own. Are they religious or something?

Depends who you ask. My view is that religion does not require a theos. Applied Marxism-Leninism, for example, is what I would call an atheist religion.

And you have only to read through this thread to see some people trying to erase the clearly defined biological constant by repurposing the terms to mean something else.
 
There's a portion of the genderist movement that believe that gender subsumes sex, and that sex is socially constructed, or that sex is a spectrum and male and female aren't well defined. There are some that put forth the notion that gender identity alters sex [...]

For centuries, any competent English speaker of ordinary intelligence has known that he or she has a mother, a mother's mother and an entire maternal line, for each member of which the " the common word exact without vulgarity" is woman, Similar considerations apply to the paternal line and man. If the champions of gender ideology can speak English, they know it too. These words continue to apply in their primary use to sex, not gender.

What is more, some words that might be called gender terms, because they reflect what is expected of men and women, have a strong affinity for one sex or the other. Only a man ( jesting and irony aside) can significantly be called unmanly or unmanned, and only a woman unwomanly or unwomaned.

If we forget the facts of everyday English, we end up playing Mornington Crescent under Butlerian Jihad rules: the audience is in on the joke, but the players are not.
 
Thank you for this. Unfortunately sport means very little to so many of the trans activists in this thread.

A little tweak

Actually, for the most part, I think it's just "sport". Generally, an awful lot of people express an opinion that sport doesn't matter. It's "fun and games". It's not important. Only elite level really matters. That's what comes up again and again.

Archie Gimmel Goal, of blessed forum memory, was obviously a major sports fan, but that seemed to be limited to men's football.

The idea that coming in second place in a girls' high school pole vault event was something that anyone should care about doesn't get a lot of traction when it comes to trans rights activists.

I think they could be bothered to care about safety, but I think the preferred solution would be to not have dangerous sports. Fairness is somewhat more difficult to define, and they aren't too bothered about it. Certainly for people who can't define "girl", getting an agreement about "fair" is probably not going to be high on the priority list.
 
Actually, for the most part, I think it's just "sport". Generally, an awful lot of people express an opinion that sport doesn't matter. It's "fun and games". It's not important. Only elite level really matters. That's what comes up again and again.
The section of the Sports Council report which summarises the interviews feels very familiar:

https://equalityinsport.org/docs/300921/Project%20Report%20on%20the%20Review%20of%20the%20Guidance%20for%20Transgender%20Inclusion%20in%20Domestic%20Sport%202021.pdf

Those interviewees who supported inclusion of transgender people, often without any restriction or requirement, made very cogent arguments as to why others were wrong and that over time, they would be shown to have been on “wrong side of history”.
A significant group of interviewees took the view that while some transgender women might indeed be bigger or stronger or faster than some of their female counterparts, this was a natural part of sport where there was always someone who had a physical advantage.
These respondents generally adopted a similar stance when discussing safety in sport. While it was acknowledged that most transgender women were bigger and stronger than females, the respondents argued that sport includes an inherent level of risk, especially in combat or collision sports, and the organising sports bodies would need to face this reality.
Most of these respondents were opposed to the International Olympic Committee (IOC) approach of mandating a reduction of testosterone levels, and they argued that asking an athlete to take unnecessary medication was unethical, morally unacceptable and discriminatory.

For female sports which are gender-affected it makes it very clear that there are 2 approaches:

Inclusion
Fairness & Safety

with NO middle ground, and that sports organisations must choose one or the other. This may become the basis for arguments in other areas.

ETA: IIRC the report was also fairly dismissive of a Case by Case approach as unworkable in practice.
 
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For centuries, any competent English speaker of ordinary intelligence has known that he or she has a mother, a mother's mother and an entire maternal line, for each member of which the " the common word exact without vulgarity" is woman, Similar considerations apply to the paternal line and man. If the champions of gender ideology can speak English, they know it too. These words continue to apply in their primary use to sex, not gender.

What is more, some words that might be called gender terms, because they reflect what is expected of men and women, have a strong affinity for one sex or the other. Only a man ( jesting and irony aside) can significantly be called unmanly or unmanned, and only a woman unwomanly or unwomaned.

If we forget the facts of everyday English, we end up playing Mornington Crescent under Butlerian Jihad rules: the audience is in on the joke, but the players are not.
Well said.
 

I finally got a chance to read through the whole report. What I find most interesting is that they've articulated the core conflict for the entire discussion. Although they were looking at it through the lens of sports, the following bits are true for pretty much the entire debate:

1. TWO GROUPS WITH DIFFERENT VALUE SYSTEMS
There was a fundamental division between two distinct groups of respondents.

One group believed in the value of inclusion. It was evident that to them sport was a vehicle for societal imperatives and sport was subservient to these outcomes. Their focus was not necessarily on sport per se, but rather how it impacted on and shaped community perceptions. For those who were primarily of the opinion that ‘pro-inclusion’ was the most important factor, any unfairness was not necessarily denied, it was thought unimportant.

The other distinct group believed in the integrity of sport itself. To these respondents, fair and safe competition, and adherence to rules, gave sport validity and was the most basic requirement which underpins the position and role which sport occupies within society. And their notion of fair play transcended any other requirement to the wider community. Again,
for those who were of the opinion that ‘pro-fairness’ was fundamental, the requirement and need for inclusion was not denied but considered subservient to fairness.

The contention, and the estimation of unfairness related almost entirely to the category of female participation. It was in this category that competitive advantage was deemed either irrelevant or unproven, or alternatively of paramount importance and incontestable.

The groups seemed mutually exclusive, and this can be considered a values-based dichotomy. The requirement of these two groups cannot be reconciled within the existing structure of sport.

While the vast majority of people with a ‘lived experience in sport’ adhered to the philosophy of the integrity of sport, this was not universal. In particular, some, mostly female sports people believe overwhelmingly in inclusion and did not consider unfairness relevant or justifiable on current understanding. And, perhaps more surprisingly, some transgender people were the most vociferous about what they considered the unfairness of inclusion of transgender people in female sport.

This echoes many of the disagreements in this thread, between the values of inclusion and the values of fairness and safety. Almost all of our disagreements in this thread have centered around the conflict between 1) the desire for inclusion of transwomen and 2) fairness and safety of females.


2. SUPPORT FOR TRANSGENDER PEOPLE
Most people are sympathetic to the plight of transgender people within broader society, and their need for inclusion and acceptance. People openly expressed their dismay as to the conflict of interest which sport presented and wished for better. There was no negative reaction towards transgender men’s involvement in male sport for instance: This points to the issue being related to notions of fairness in sport rather than antipathy to transgender
people in general.

In this way, discussion regarding physical parameters between the sexes which impacts sporting performance should not be misconstrued as any value judgement or antagonism to transgender people themselves.

Again, this is echoed throughout this thread as well, where there is no animosity or dislike toward transgender people being shown, and where we all pretty much support fair treatment and equality under the law for transgender people.

6. FRUSTRATION, ANIMOSITY AND EMOTION
The level of frustration, animosity and emotionality was high in the many of interviews. There was a lot of swearing, shouting, crying and anxiety displayed during interviews. A significant number of interviewees said that they would only be involved if anonymity was assured because people were afraid to say in public what they privately believed. The overwhelming majority of people who considered fairness and safety could not be achieved
with transgender inclusion into female sport did not feel confident to voice these opinions. Some said that they had been threatened with sanction or disciplinary action if they spoke out. Many of the interviewees who held positions with sporting agencies said their personal opinions were in direct conflict with that of their employer or agency’s stated position, many
felt they had no option but to remain silent in order to keep their job. This was a frequently oiced frustration which regularly reduced the interviewee to tears or hostility.

Ethnically diverse people were unhappy that their concerns were often minimised, and it was yet another example of how they were “last on the list”.

Other interviewees were cautious of involvement in this process as they did not wish to see any suggestion that the involvement in sport of transgender people, transgender women especially, put at risk. Some wanted guarantees of affirmative action.

Within the current environment it is unlikely to see pro-inclusion groups reach their objective of inclusion and acceptance because of the latent toxicity which has been generated. Some interviewees considered that the perception of transgender inclusion in society had deteriorated as a result of policies forcing inclusion before the implications were thought through.

The emotional aspect of this debate is pretty obvious, but I think that the last sentence that I highlighted really nails it. There are a whole lot of policies being pushed through that I disagree with, because it really seems like those policies haven't been thought through.
 
For female sports which are gender-affected it makes it very clear that there are 2 approaches:

Inclusion
Fairness & Safety

with NO middle ground, and that sports organisations must choose one or the other. This may become the basis for arguments in other areas.

ETA: IIRC the report was also fairly dismissive of a Case by Case approach as unworkable in practice.

I think this is true for a LOT of the topics where there is significant debate. There really is a conflict between inclusion of transwomen (specifically transwomen, not transmen) and fairness & safety for females.

That's the core of the problem when it comes to prisons, rape & DV shelters, sex-segregated facilities and services, and even political representation and honors.
 
For centuries, any competent English speaker of ordinary intelligence has known that he or she has a mother, a mother's mother and an entire maternal line, for each member of which the " the common word exact without vulgarity" is woman, Similar considerations apply to the paternal line and man. If the champions of gender ideology can speak English, they know it too. These words continue to apply in their primary use to sex, not gender.

What is more, some words that might be called gender terms, because they reflect what is expected of men and women, have a strong affinity for one sex or the other. Only a man ( jesting and irony aside) can significantly be called unmanly or unmanned, and only a woman unwomanly or unwomaned.

If we forget the facts of everyday English, we end up playing Mornington Crescent under Butlerian Jihad rules: the audience is in on the joke, but the players are not.
words and descriptions and definitions change over time, notwithstanding the harking back to whatever you are banging on about.
 
words and descriptions and definitions change over time, notwithstanding the harking back to whatever you are banging on about.

Not like this they don't. This is a very recent, very artificial effort, to force a language change that elides clear meaning in favor of ideological purity. But whatever, sure, okay. Go along to get along. You want to decouple gender from sex? Fine. Gender stereotypes aren't really a such great thing anyway.

And we still have sex for when we need that clarity of biological fact, right?

Wrong. As this thread has developed, we've seen a clear progression. The goal is not to decouple gender from sex. The goal is to eliminate the clarity of fact altogether. I was all set to not only accept, but wholeheartedly support, the ambiguation of "man" and "woman". Until I realized that it's actually just a dress rehearsal for the ambiguation of "male" and "female".

Transgenderism is really just transsexualism wearing social justice like a skin suit.
 
Depends who you ask. My view is that religion does not require a theos. Applied Marxism-Leninism, for example, is what I would call an atheist religion.

And you have only to read through this thread to see some people trying to erase the clearly defined biological constant by repurposing the terms to mean something else.
Yeah, I think I should cross out 'religious' and insert 'denying reality'.

Non religious people can deny reality too.
 
Not like this they don't. This is a very recent, very artificial effort, to force a language change that elides clear meaning in favor of ideological purity. But whatever, sure, okay. Go along to get along. You want to decouple gender from sex? Fine. Gender stereotypes aren't really a such great thing anyway.

And we still have sex for when we need that clarity of biological fact, right?

Wrong. As this thread has developed, we've seen a clear progression. The goal is not to decouple gender from sex. The goal is to eliminate the clarity of fact altogether. I was all set to not only accept, but wholeheartedly support, the ambiguation of "man" and "woman". Until I realized that it's actually just a dress rehearsal for the ambiguation of "male" and "female".

Transgenderism is really just transsexualism wearing social justice like a skin suit.
Oh, are you seeing a cunning plan here? I haven't thought about that.

I don't see how anyone could treat male/female as ambiguous though, no matter how many words anyone throws at it.

male/female is a thing, arguing about it is pointless, oh unless you are religious denying reality.
 
Yeah, I think I should cross out 'religious' and insert 'denying reality'.

Non religious people can deny reality too.

Heh. The way I'd put it is that denying reality is a religion thing. If you're denying reality, you're falling into the failure modes of religion.

Reality denial. Dogmatism. Schism. Heresy. Inquisitions. You can find these all over the place, not just in theistic communities. The Soviet Union, for example.
 
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