Texas bans abortion.

[Warp12]

Yes, the Texas law is excessive. As for outlawing abortion, I am not crazy about it, but I think maybe some should (not in cases of rape, incest, where the life of the mother is in danger), maybe not right at conception or in the weeks or so, but maybe later in development when the fetus is more than "a clump of cells". I just think the fetus is something of value, something that may have rights separate from that of the women.

Well, can you draw a line? Meaning, generally speaking, should abortion be acceptable by law at least through the first trimester?

 

[cosmicaug]

feel free to take out the word creator and substitute the word nature.

How does that help? How does replacing a non existent god/creator with a non existent personified nature help in any way?

Would these statements about rights being derived/granted from nature be any different than if they were statements about rights being derived/granted from umbrellas?

Like you go into nature & you realize that nature itself is granting you these rights and you understand how this rights granting process is happening; whereas when you step up to an umbrella (maybe even the most beautiful of umbrellas) you can count on no such understandings? Or maybe none of that actually happens?

Maybe this is flowery language to avoid making it obvious that you are just saying "I'll know if it's a right when I see it!". If this is what is actually happening, then are you not saying that you (people) is where the right is coming from, at at least some level?

 

[Warbler]

Where in the world do you think I've ever asked anyone to accept my opinion about their family planning? I find that thought absurd. My opinion should only matter in areas that actually affect me. I have absolutely no desire to manage anyone else's life especially in regards to family planning.

If abortion is legal, those that think the fetus has no value and no rights are by definition asking everyone else to accept their opinion.

 

[JoeMorgue]

gametes?

Yes gametes. One of those terms you should probably know before you go into a discussion like this.

This is why the "But it's just my opinion!" thing doesn't work. You are ill informed. Your opinion doesn't count.

 

[Warbler]

Well, can you draw a line? Meaning, generally speaking, should abortion be acceptable by law at least through the first trimester?

maybe. I'm just not sure.

 

[Warp12]

Well, can you draw a line? Meaning, generally speaking, should abortion be acceptable by law at least through the first trimester?

maybe. I'm just not sure.

This sort of fence-sitting is not in your favor, and makes me question your intent in this thread. Good luck.

 

[Warbler]

Yes they are. They both doing exactly what it takes to complete the human life cycle.

a sperm alone doesn't turn into a human.

But it's not new and it's not separate. Both the sperm and egg that preceded it are alive. And the sperm that proceeded was far more separate and independent than the blastocyst/embryo is.

conception is when a new human starts to develop, when a cell from the mother and a cell from the father combine and start to turn into a new human being. I don't know what else to say on the matter.

 

[JoeMorgue]

maybe. I'm just not sure.

Putting down a lot of rules for someone who isn't sure about anything.

 

[RecoveringYuppy]

If abortion is legal, those that think the fetus has no value and no rights are by definition asking everyone else to accept their opinion.

How in the world do you think that? None of us are forcing people to abort, when to get pregnant, or anything like that.

And no one is telling you you can't place any value you like on your own children. Most people who get pregnant want to get or be pregnant. And most of them expect to have successful pregnancies. Most of them will value their new child the instant they find out they are pregnant possibly even before they are even pregnant. They can value it as much as they like and think of it however they see fit.

You act as if we're forcing people to get pregnant so they can be forced to have abortions.

 

[Warbler]

Your rationale for forcing a woman to continue an unwanted pregnancy is that a fertilized egg is special and at some point has more rights than the mother.

no, not more rights than the mother, just that at some point the right of the fetus to live exceeds the right of the mother to terminate the pregnancy.

I’m wondering what rights that fertilized egg has in the freezer of a fertility clinic when the donors who fertilized it no longer need it and ask the clinic to throw it out.

good question. I wish I knew a good answer. I don't

 

[Warbler]

Yes gametes. One of those terms you should probably know before you go into a discussion like this.

This is why the "But it's just my opinion!" thing doesn't work. You are ill informed. Your opinion doesn't count.

I've looked the term up it just seems to be another way of referring to a sperm cell and an unfertilized egg cell.

 

[RecoveringYuppy]

a sperm alone doesn't turn into a human.

Neither does an embryo.

conception is when a new human starts to develop, when a cell from the mother and a cell from the father combine and start to turn into a new human being. I don't know what else to say on the matter.

You could face reality and realize this simply isn't true. The egg and the sperm are necessary parts of the human life cycle. It's your arbitrary choice to choose the chemical reaction you've chosen as being of supreme importance. The chemical reaction has no more intrinsic meaning then any of the other millions of reactions that are necessary to get a fully developed human being.

 

[Warbler]

This sort of fence-sitting is not in your favor, and makes me question your intent in this thread. Good luck.

my intent was to try to get the pro choice side see a little of the pro life side, that it isn't just Bible thumping and shaming and objectifying women. That maybe in pregnancy and a decision whether or not to abort affects not just the woman but the other life inside her. That maybe something should be said for that other life. I think too many times it is just dismissed in favor women's rights.

 

[Warbler]

How in the world do you think that? None of us are forcing people to abort, when to get pregnant, or anything like that.

no, but you forcing your opinion of the value of the fetus on all of society. The only way to totally completely legalize abortion is to say the fetus has not value and no rights.

 

[RecoveringYuppy]

no, but you forcing your opinion of the value of the fetus on all of society.

You don't seem to be reading what people are writing to you very well.

 

[RecoveringYuppy]

I think too many times it is just dismissed in favor women's rights.

What's the right number of times to deny women their rights?

 

[Warbler]

Neither does an embryo.

um, it does if it in womb.

You could face reality and realize this simply isn't true. The egg and the sperm are necessary parts of the human life cycle.

I never said they weren't part of the human life cycle.

It's your arbitrary choice to choose the chemical reaction you've chosen as being of supreme importance. The chemical reaction has no more intrinsic meaning then any of the other millions of reactions that are necessary to get a fully developed human being.

I agree to disagree. I say that chemical reaction is where "the magic happens" if you will.

 

[RecoveringYuppy]

um, it does if it in womb.

Oh for crying out loud. Please tell me where you know of a womb that isn't part of a person.

I never said they weren't part of the human life cycle.

You said conception is when a new human starts to develop. And that is wrong. Objectively wrong. You can only make that statement true by assuming some subjectively chosen definition of human.

The formation of any human does not start at conception. It certainly can't be denied that the formation of the sperm days before conception and the egg decades before conception were necessary to get to that point. How can you deny that those aren't starting points?

I agree to disagree. I say that chemical reaction is where "the magic happens" if you will.

Magic, wonderful. Some of us like to live in reality.

And please pay attention to what I said just a few posts back which you immediately lied about. No one is telling you you can't place whatever value you like on that chemical reaction. It's forcing other people to live your fantasy that is a problem.

 

[acbytesla]

That's the idea, its all part of the game!

If you never actually say what you mean, you can never be pinned down to a position on any given topic. I have an ex like that (the narcissist I have spoken about before). You could never, ever get her to actually say what she wanted - it was always a stupid game in which I would have to suggest what she wants, and the only answers you ever got (if you even got an answer) were "no" and "maybe"

I can't stand this behavior. I see why she's your ex. My only question is why did you marry her?

I absolutely love a good discussion with an honest interlocutor who disagrees with me. It teaches me a lot. I get to hear a perspective that I might not have heard.

Abortion is a tough subject. There is a lot of emotion involved. Especially if you're religious which I am not.

Whether Warp will address them or not. There are practical realities to making abortion illegal.

• It doesn't prevent abortions, it just makes them illegal.
• It means punishing those that have abortions
• Or it means punishing those who perform abortions.
• It means punishing those that get pregnant. As it forces them to carry a fetus to term and to give birth.
• It will mean young women dropping out of high schools and colleges.
• It will mean a lifetime of economic challenges for the parents and probably their offspring.
• It will mean a constraint against sexual activities for men and women.
• It will mean another inequity between the wealthy and the poor as the wealthy will always be able to sidestep the law

.

Unlike Warp who shrugs off all these realities in his cloak of "personal accountability." I cannot and will not turn a blind eye to them.

 

[Warp12]

I can't stand this behavior. I see why she's your ex. My only question is why did you marry her?

I absolutely love a good discussion with an honest interlocutor who disagrees with me. It teaches me a lot. I get to hear a perspective that I might not have heard.

Abortion is a tough subject. There is a lot of emotion involved. Especially if you're religious which I am not.

Whether Warp will address them or not. There are practical realities to making abortion illegal.

• It doesn't prevent abortions, it just makes them illegal.
• It means punishing those that have abortions
• Or it means punishing those who perform abortions.
• It means punishing those that get pregnant. As it forces them to carry a fetus to term and to give birth.
• It will mean young women dropping out of high schools and colleges.
• It will mean a lifetime of economic challenges for the parents and probably their offspring.
• It will mean a constraint against sexual activities for men and women.
• It will mean another inequity between the wealthy and the poor as the wealthy will always be able to sidestep the law

.

Unlike Warp who shrugs off all these realities in his cloak of "personal accountability." I cannot and will not turn a blind eye to them.

Uhhh...I never said abortion should be illegal.