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Cont: Cancel culture IRL Part 2

This is like someone going "Just because he calls himself a Rapist doesn't mean he rapes people."

Yes it does. WORDS MEAN THINGS.
 
JoeMorgue said:
Oh my God are we seriously having the "It's totally unreasonable (and not... TRUE SKEPTIC(TM)) to assume that just because someone says they are a Nazi that they are actually a Nazi" argument YET ******* AGAIN.
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Yup.

As long as you have the enablers, the ostriches with their heads buried in the sand, the supporters of "the marketplace of ideas" and the "eVerYone ShoULd GeT a FaIr HeaRiNG" crowd, and those who invoke Torquemada every time their own arguments tank, then you will get this argument.
 
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JoeMorgue said:
Not to beat this drum yet again but this also sounds a lot like the "I can't ignore you engaging the troll, so you have to ignore the troll" thing which I can't stand.

This fits in well with my observation that among this... type of people it's seen as better to have no standards (intellectual, moral, ethical, legal, whatever) then it is have standards and commit the Cardinal Sin of not living up to a 100% strawman, super-literal, no accounting for context version of them.

Here's how their thought process seems to works.

1. Someone tells them anything. This triggers the "How dare you tell me what to think!" subroutine. The idea that someone else has given them information they don't have offends them on a deep level and it drives them crazy. So much of their personal identity is wrapped up in "thinking for themselves" that they have started to actively rejected external information.

2. They immediately start looking for reasons the other person is a "hypocrite." And the way they do this is take the person's values, create a hyper-strawman version of them, find an incident where the person didn't live up to that version of their "standards.

For instance. AOC is actually pretty poor for a member of Congress, but she does make a halfway decent living, drives a fairly nice car, stuff like that. I mean just living in DC is goddamn expensive so I'm sure on a literal level she does throw around more money than average. But AOC is pretty far on the Right and speaks out a lot on class and wage disparity and the ultrawealthy. So the fact that AOC drives a Tesla means she's a... HYPOCRITE while a Republican Congressman worth many, many times more isn't. She is demonized for having standards. If you don't have standards you can never be a hypocrite, never be pretentious, never have to be taken down a peg, can't ever be "not as smart as you think you are" and all those other faults that these people focus on. The only sin you can commit to these people is aiming high and not making it. Wallow in the gutter and you can never let anyone down.

Now me, I operate much more on the "The pot can call the kettle black and the kettle can still be black" side of things. Hypocrisy is certainly an annoying personal trait but it doesn't override actual facts. Not matter the pot and kettles opinion of each other's blackness the RGB and Luminosity values of said pot and said kettle are verifiable facts that exist indendenatly. If I point a DataColor ColorReader at the pot and it returns an RGB value of #000000 the pot is black and the kettle's opinion is no longer needed or matters. The pot, the kettle, or anyone else can be hypocritical about the color of the pot or kettle they want, the facts don't change.

A person who says global warming is a problem and drives a nice car is STILL ******* CORRECT THAT GLOBAL WARMING IS A PROBLEM. Class Disparage isn't not a thing just because AOC doesn't live in a cardboard box and take the bus.

This is why discussions with them always have to take place in some fantasy world they are making up. They never want to discuss events as they actually happened but alternate timelines they are making up in the brain where they can control all the variables.

That's why we have a dozen threads at random point on this board where there's one person who on top of a hill going "If you ignore all the reasons I'm wrong and judge my argument solely on my alternative universe version of events then you'll have to admit I'm right."
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Did you mean to write "left" there?

Its kinda like criticizing Greta Thunberg for *gasp* riding on a diesel powered train and then deciding because of this she can be ignored and climate change is fictional.
 
smartcooky said:
Yup.

As long as you have the enablers, the ostriches with their heads buried in the sand, the supporters of "the marketplace of ideas" and the "eVerYone ShoULd GeT a FaIr HeaRiNG" crowd, then you will get this argument.
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Fascist: "Some people are sub-human and need to culled for the greater good of mankind."

Marketplace of idea supporter: "Well no I don't actually support that, but I support their right to say it".

Someone else: "I think genocide is like REALLY BAD and I'm going to voice my opinion by saying I'll boycott anyone that monetarily supports proponents of genocide whether its their employer, advertiser, investor etc".

Marketplace of idea supporter: "WTF OMG YOU CAN'T DO THAT! What about freedom of speech (for the fascist, but YOU can't say anything that might effect them in any negative way)".

Its absurd.
 
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lobosrul5 said:
Fascist: "Some people are sub-human and need to culled for the greater good of mankind."

Marketplace of idea supporter: "Well no I don't actually support that, but I support their right to say it".

Someone else: "I think genocide is like REALLY BAD and I'm going to voice my opinion by saying I'll boycott anyone that monetarily supports proponents of genocide whether its their employer, advertiser, investor etc".

Marketplace of idea supporter: "WTF OMG YOU CAN'T DO THAT! What about freedom of speech (for the fascist, but YOU can't say anything that might effect them in any negative way)".

Its absurd.
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100%, yet we have "fascists are people too" members right here on this forum, whose posts are exactly like those responses.
 
lobosrul5 said:
Its kinda like criticizing Greta Thunberg for *gasp* riding on a diesel powered train and then deciding because of this she can be ignored and climate change is fictional.
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I'm sure it's been a "thing" on some level for pretty much ever, but for me the modern version of it it started when "Al Gore doesn't live in a solar powered cardboard box, ergo environmentalism is just leftist pseudo-science" stopped being the subtext and started being the text in the early 2000s.
 
smartcooky said:
100%, yet we have "fascists are people too" members right here on this forum, whose posts are exactly like those responses.
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Well I don't disagree with "fascists are people too" and still deserve civil rights. That doesn't mean anyone should be required to give them a platform to spew their **** about. As if we lose something valuable by not hearing them out.
 
lobosrul5 said:
Fascist: "Some people are sub-human and need to culled for the greater good of mankind."

Marketplace of idea supporter: "Well no I don't actually support that, but I support their right to say it".

Someone else: "I think genocide is like REALLY BAD and I'm going to voice my opinion by saying I'll boycott anyone that monetarily supports proponents of genocide whether its their employer, advertiser, investor etc".

Marketplace of idea supporter: "WTF OMG YOU CAN'T DO THAT! What about freedom of speech (for the fascist, but YOU can't say anything that might effect them in any negative way)".
Its absurd.
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Not only does this give the fascists more latitude, it means not applying that same standard to themselves.

Fascists have dehumanized people by falsely claiming that certain groups are inherently dangerous and trying to replace white people. This has lead directly to mass murder in the recent past (El Paso, Tree of Life, a very vile etc). This speech can't be used to judge the character of the people literally paying for it to be advanced, and you have to still associate with theses people, because not doing so would dehumanize them and might lead to murder in the future. This is why you cannot correctly find the fascists inherently dangerous.

But the deluded centrist somehow misses that if that is the standard not only should they be trying to hold the fascists to it too, but if they held themselves to it they are doing that to the people judging the character of the fascists, which by the deluded centrists standard would mean they are dehumanizing which can lead to murder.

It's absurd all the way down.
 
Everyone has rights. That's a pointless truisms that says nothing.

A rapist has rights. That doesn't mean "rapists" and "person who rapes" have different meanings.
 
I love the Marketplace of Ideas. As I concept I will always support it.

But it's meaningless if every idea has to stay in it forever. The Marketplace of Ideas is allowed to make decisions and go "Okay we've decided this is wrong."

Again there's an always an ulterior motive for people who want the debate to never end.
 
JoeMorgue said:
This is like someone going "Just because he calls himself a Rapist doesn't mean he rapes people."

Yes it does. WORDS MEAN THINGS.
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Sure, the guy has Nazi tattoos and wears Nazi paraphernalia, chants Nazi slogans, and runs a Nazi website, but if you don't know if they subscribe to the economic policies of 1940's Germany, you can't call them a Nazi and are apparently a horrible person for even suggesting it.
 
JoeMorgue said:
Again there's an always an ulterior motive for people who want the debate to never end.
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From time to time you actually come across the true believers, but generally that is not the case. It's like finding a libertarian who's not in it just for the kiddie rape and tax evasion.

There are a couple "cancel culture" pundits who I actually find take a pretty consistent view of this, bemoaning censorious right and left alike. Still don't think they have a point, but it's nice for some intellectual honesty.
 
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SuburbanTurkey said:
From time to time you actually come across the true believers, but generally that is not the case. It's like finding a libertarian who's not in it just for the kiddie rape and tax evasion.
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I was in it for the legalized pot* but since our democratic governor did it there really is nothing about their party I find appealing.

*I flirted with libertarianism for about one semester in college.
 
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