• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Discussion: Transwomen are not women (Part 7)

Status
Not open for further replies.
"RBG misspoke, uttered a taboo. This is very bad. Please redo the entire piece. Send it to your supervisor for review prior to publication."

It's actually a very efficient jargon.
 
Because it gets falsely associated with people like me.
I don't associate it with you, nor do I think that anyone here would do so. I can understand being touchy about it though, certainly.

When I was a kid and teen, I would wear women's clothing because it felt right. But there was also sexual excitement that came from it. The difference is that over time as it became more normal and everyday for me, that excitement dissipated and eventually went away. It became less taboo and more normal. But that kind of thing about my past is something I would never admit to a therapist because they might put me in the same camp as this freak.
I'm not so sure. Almost everything taboo has an element of titillation to it, that's part of human nature. But like you say, once that initial "omg am I really dong this" is past, it fades very quickly. There's also an element of fantasy in teens that plays into developing sexuality. I'll share some of my own personal information, so you don't feel alone and under the microscope :).

When I was a teenager, my own developing sexuality was fairly confused. I was mostly attracted to males... but there was one female in school that made my heart race and made me flush, and I had a hard time not staring at her because she was so sexy to me. I would fantasize while masturbating that I was a male, so that I could have sex with her. I tried to imaging the power and the eroticism of thrusting. And for a while I thought I might be lesbian or bisexual. Eventually, however, I figured out that my reaction to males was different - there was a heat and a pull involved that was physically different than what I felt toward sexy females. Eventually, sometime in my first couple of years of college after some experimenting, I figured out that it wasn't actually sexual attraction, so much as it was envy perhaps. It wasn't that I was sexually attracted to the sexy females, so much as I wanted to be the sexy female, I wanted to have that kind of affect on other people, I wanted to have that kind of sexual presence. And my fantasies of being a male having sex with the sexy female were more akin to reading a romance novel - directing the actions that I would want a male to take with me, if I were the sexy female that I desired to be.

I don't think that's particularly uncommon in teenagers. I know it's not uncommon among female teenagers. It's part of an evolving sexuality.

I would hope that a *good* therapist wouldn't get hung up on a relatively normal part of teenage evolution when treating you, or anyone else.

People who are solely guided by these kinds of fetishes are could be considered autogynephiles, but they aren't transgender. Blanchard and his cohorts like to put us all in one pile, and that's where the problems start.

I hear where you're coming from, but I think it's kind of backwards. What Blanchard did was to tease apart the motivational factors behind transgender people, and classify them into two categories - one of which is a paraphilia. There are actually quite a few transgender identified males out there who acknowledge that their motiviation is autogynephilia, and who consider themselves to be transwomen.

I can also sympathize with you not wanting to be associated with a paraphilia.

Part of what Blanchard did was to draw a distinction between two main categories of gender dysphoria in males, and to recommend different treatment approaches for them. Their HSTS category were ones that they believed would benefit from therapy aimed at them being comfortable being feminine gay males without physical alteration, but they also recognized that gender dysphoria among HSTS had a much higher likelihood of not being alleviated in that fashion, and that transition was a very appropriate and reasonable treatment for the distress caused by their dysphoria.

Blanchard's approach for AGP was different. It was first aimed at addressing the paraphilia and managing it. If that didn't work, there were steps through periodic cross-dressing etc. that were intended to manage the sexual urges without putting either the patient or other people at risk or discomfort. Blanchard understood that AGP created a situation where a male with a paraphilia could exploit females for their sexual pleasure, essentially use females as a sexual object to fulfil their fetish. And that is not fair to the females who end up being unwilling participants in someone else's fantasy role-play. I'm certain you can relate to that - you've previously mentioned 'chasers' who aren't actually interested in transwomen as fully realized people, but rather as sexual objects for their fantasies. Being the object of that kind of behavior is creepy af, and I consider that to be predatory behavior.

I don't think Blanchard's intention was to 'lump them all together', it was to pull them apart. I think this is demonstrated by the fact that AGP is a diagnosis under transvestic disorders, which are in the class of paraphilias. Gender Identity Disorder was NOT in the same class. GID got renamed to Gender Dysphoria, and removed as a *diagnosis*, and is now considered a symptom instead, as it can have multiple underlying drivers. But AGP still remains in DSM-5.

I'm sorry this post got so long, but I think it's an important point, because this is actually a common ground between you and I. Both you and I view AGP as a paraphilia, as a sexual fetish, and we view it as being qualitatively different from what we would both consider to be "true transgender". We agree on that point.

I think where we disagree is in recognition that there are actually AGP people out there who do have paraphilias. I'm pretty certain that they absolutely exist.

And that's where things get complicated. Because I don't think that either you or I want AGP males to have unfettered access to female changing rooms, showers, or prisons. And that's where self-declaration becomes a real challenge.

I would really, really love to have a discussion with you about how we can accommodate the needs and dignity of transgender people like yourself, while still providing protection and safety for both you and I from AGP people who could exploit self-declared gender identity in ways that neither of us approve of.

Do you have any ideas on how to let you in, but keep them out?
 
I lack compassion for people who attempt to harm our community.

I lack compassion for Caitlyn Jenner for the same reason, she has done nothing but harm and attack us. The fact that she has become the most well-known trans woman out there and therefore considered a 'representative' of us by some people is disgusting.

I have some ignorance on this. How did Jenner harm and attack your community?

And what do you consider to be harm?
 
I won't deny you the legal right to bear children. I'm fairly certain that evolution has, and will continue to, deny you the ability to do so.

I can only assume that you have watched the Monty Python clip referred to in that post,

but anyone who hasn't watched it, should.
 
And the point still is relevant, how far along ones journey do they need to be to use the restrooms assigned to their gender? What needs to happen for them to be their gender in your eyes instead of that assigned at birth?

I'll answer the second question first. Since no one can define what your second question even means*, I can't really answer it. As best I can tell, "gender" in the modern definition is a deeply felt internal sense of self, in which case, "my eyes" don't really play a role in gender anyway. It's their eyes that matter.

Now for the first question. I'll generalize it beyond restrooms, to other areas of sex segregation.

I can't give technical answers, because frankly, I don't know enough about the process, but I can say some principles that I would use.

Sports - If the male advantage is removed safely, at that point I think they should be able to compete as girls/women. I don't know at what that point is, and it might be that it's impossible to do that. Regardless of whether or not it is possible, that should be the requirement. If it's impossible, then the transwomen can't compete. This should be up to leagues to make specific determinations.

Changing rooms - People with functional male sex organs should use facilities for males. People who have undergone full surgical transition should use the facilities of their post op anatomy. What about people in between? People whose HRT has rendered their sex organs non-functional, but those organs still exist? It seems to me that at some point, they ought to be allowed to use the female facilities despite their no longer functional male anatomy. Exactly how to write that legislation is difficult, and beyone my knowledge.

Bathrooms - Similar to changing rooms, but with a huge, important, difference. Everyone needs to pee, and you can't plan ahead, so that gets kind of awkward. Generally, I would compromise a lot more on restrooms than changing rooms.


And two principles that apply in all of the above cases:

1) For private facilities, government should not force any specific policy.
2) My assumption is based on the belief that in imposing policies like those above, I am conforming to the wishes of many, probably most, and possibly and overwhelming majority of cis women would wish.

*ETA: Please, if anyone wants to explain what it means, give it a shot. You want my honest, frank, approach to this? Short of surgery, I think of you as your sex observed at birth, but I'm willing to go along.
 
Last edited:
Trans Activists: Sex and gender are intensely personal. Everyone is on their own journey. How dare you question their choices?

Also Trans Activists: Any journey that doesn't advance the personal journey I've chosen for myself is doing it wrong and isn't really trans.
 
Trans Activists: Sex and gender are intensely personal. Everyone is on their own journey. How dare you question their choices?

Also Trans Activists: Any journey that doesn't advance the personal journey I've chosen for myself is doing it wrong and isn't really trans.


Which is of course a flat contradiction in terms.


And in any case since cis-females are nothing more than "...bodies with vaginas..." to quote The Lancet's latest cover (See the tweeted image below), their opinion is not worth considering.



https://twitter.com/TheLancet/status/1441372277786951681/photo/1
 

Surely this cannot be the first time the Loretta scene from Life of Brian has come up in this conversation? This entire absurd discussion and all of its sequels have been one long overblown Loretta sketch.

I suspect that sketch is considered right-wing hate speech these days in any case which probably illustrates rather well how far we've sunk.
 
I don't associate it with you, nor do I think that anyone here would do so. I can understand being touchy about it though, certainly.


I'm not so sure. Almost everything taboo has an element of titillation to it, that's part of human nature. But like you say, once that initial "omg am I really dong this" is past, it fades very quickly. There's also an element of fantasy in teens that plays into developing sexuality. I'll share some of my own personal information, so you don't feel alone and under the microscope :).

When I was a teenager, my own developing sexuality was fairly confused. I was mostly attracted to males... but there was one female in school that made my heart race and made me flush, and I had a hard time not staring at her because she was so sexy to me. I would fantasize while masturbating that I was a male, so that I could have sex with her. I tried to imaging the power and the eroticism of thrusting. And for a while I thought I might be lesbian or bisexual. Eventually, however, I figured out that my reaction to males was different - there was a heat and a pull involved that was physically different than what I felt toward sexy females. Eventually, sometime in my first couple of years of college after some experimenting, I figured out that it wasn't actually sexual attraction, so much as it was envy perhaps. It wasn't that I was sexually attracted to the sexy females, so much as I wanted to be the sexy female, I wanted to have that kind of affect on other people, I wanted to have that kind of sexual presence. And my fantasies of being a male having sex with the sexy female were more akin to reading a romance novel - directing the actions that I would want a male to take with me, if I were the sexy female that I desired to be.

I don't think that's particularly uncommon in teenagers. I know it's not uncommon among female teenagers. It's part of an evolving sexuality.

I would hope that a *good* therapist wouldn't get hung up on a relatively normal part of teenage evolution when treating you, or anyone else.

I can sympathize with this. When I was growing up, I liked girls, in that little kid way of course. Even later on in my childhood when I started wearing my mom's dresses and makeup, I never did it to attract guys, because I wasn't into that at the time (Which is why I don't like when people try to use sexual attraction as a reason why we transition). I did still get a thrill from it at the time, but I don't think it was really a sexual thing since I started when I was about 9.

But after I hit puberty, something changed. I started looking at the boys more and more and realized I was sexually attracted to them, but not that much to the girls I liked before. Over time as I realized a lot of things about myself, I think envy and jealousy of cis girls over what I didn't have at the time probably factored in. And the physical changes that male puberty brought helped make me more and more depressed.

I tried to fit in as a gay man, but that wasn't me, and I just isolated myself more and more from people. Now as a polysexual woman, I feel like how I should have felt all along and I'm finally happy. I've also started dating finally that I can feel like I can be with someone as me.

I hear where you're coming from, but I think it's kind of backwards. What Blanchard did was to tease apart the motivational factors behind transgender people, and classify them into two categories - one of which is a paraphilia. There are actually quite a few transgender identified males out there who acknowledge that their motiviation is autogynephilia, and who consider themselves to be transwomen.

I can also sympathize with you not wanting to be associated with a paraphilia.

Part of what Blanchard did was to draw a distinction between two main categories of gender dysphoria in males, and to recommend different treatment approaches for them. Their HSTS category were ones that they believed would benefit from therapy aimed at them being comfortable being feminine gay males without physical alteration, but they also recognized that gender dysphoria among HSTS had a much higher likelihood of not being alleviated in that fashion, and that transition was a very appropriate and reasonable treatment for the distress caused by their dysphoria.

Blanchard's approach for AGP was different. It was first aimed at addressing the paraphilia and managing it. If that didn't work, there were steps through periodic cross-dressing etc. that were intended to manage the sexual urges without putting either the patient or other people at risk or discomfort. Blanchard understood that AGP created a situation where a male with a paraphilia could exploit females for their sexual pleasure, essentially use females as a sexual object to fulfil their fetish. And that is not fair to the females who end up being unwilling participants in someone else's fantasy role-play. I'm certain you can relate to that - you've previously mentioned 'chasers' who aren't actually interested in transwomen as fully realized people, but rather as sexual objects for their fantasies. Being the object of that kind of behavior is creepy af, and I consider that to be predatory behavior.

I don't think Blanchard's intention was to 'lump them all together', it was to pull them apart. I think this is demonstrated by the fact that AGP is a diagnosis under transvestic disorders, which are in the class of paraphilias. Gender Identity Disorder was NOT in the same class. GID got renamed to Gender Dysphoria, and removed as a *diagnosis*, and is now considered a symptom instead, as it can have multiple underlying drivers. But AGP still remains in DSM-5.

I'm sorry this post got so long, but I think it's an important point, because this is actually a common ground between you and I. Both you and I view AGP as a paraphilia, as a sexual fetish, and we view it as being qualitatively different from what we would both consider to be "true transgender". We agree on that point.

I think where we disagree is in recognition that there are actually AGP people out there who do have paraphilias. I'm pretty certain that they absolutely exist.

And that's where things get complicated. Because I don't think that either you or I want AGP males to have unfettered access to female changing rooms, showers, or prisons. And that's where self-declaration becomes a real challenge.

I would really, really love to have a discussion with you about how we can accommodate the needs and dignity of transgender people like yourself, while still providing protection and safety for both you and I from AGP people who could exploit self-declared gender identity in ways that neither of us approve of.

Do you have any ideas on how to let you in, but keep them out?

When it comes to AGP, it's not like the concept itself isn't a thing. It is. And I do agree with you that it's a fetish or paraphilia, and that I don't consider them truly transgender. Where Blanchard is wrong is that there aren't different types of trans people. There are transgender people like me, and then there are transvestites or cross-dressers like Shupe. You even said the categories you put transgender people into are either AGP or HSTS, and I've been arguing that there is no such real distinction between us who are actually transgender.

We do have people in our community where it is clear they are just transitioning for a sexual thrill, and they typically aren't that welcome. I personally feel like they drag the rest of us down with them, but that's me.

While I don't think gender dysphoria alone is necessary to be trans, I do feel like the motivations and actions of people like Shupe (in his own words) show him to be untrustworthy and deceptive in his goals.

As far as how to 'keep them out'? I still don't think it's that necessary as long as they don't pose a threat to us. And I don't think that just their presence alone is enough of a threat.

I have some ignorance on this. How did Jenner harm and attack your community?

And what do you consider to be harm?

She's been persona-non-grata in the trans community for quite a while now due to her conservative and out of touch views.

Trans people are dreading Caitlyn Jenner’s run for governor

Caitlyn Jenner branded ‘the Phyllis Schlafly of the trans community’ after Sean Hannity interview

Much like the author of the first article, I was initially supportive of her, until she made her views known. When she ran for Governor here I thought it was hilarious. I knew Republicans wouldn't vote for her because she's transgender, and Democrats wouldn't vote for her because of her conservative and anti-trans views. And she rightfully ended up with 1.1% of the vote. :D
 
Last edited:
I do wish you would stop alluding to governments as bodies which listen to all expert opinion before coming up with rational and flawless legislation. Governments first priority is to get re-elected. It’s why Texas has banned abortion and the UK withdrew from Europe. They were populist decisions bereft of wisdom and expert opinion and I believe these pieces of legislation are wrong.

Governments can and often do get legislation wrong.


So you think the granting of transgender rights was a populist decision, predicated on securing the support of the electorate for the purpose of re-election?

I've got news for you on that one.....


(Oh, and I don't know how the Australian parliament works, but here in the UK proposed new legislation such as this is always subject to public consultation and select-committee hearings featuring all interested parties. And, while the Government proposes new legislation and ultimately enacts it, it's up to parliament to actually approve it. Here in the UK, this also means getting the approval of the House of Lords, which (these days) is a group predominantly containing learned experts across pretty much every field. The Lords frequently request amendments to proposed legislation. There are plenty of checks and balances in the system here.)
 
Which is of course a flat contradiction in terms.


And in any case since cis-females are nothing more than "...bodies with vaginas..." to quote The Lancet's latest cover (See the tweeted image below), their opinion is not worth considering.



https://twitter.com/TheLancet/status/1441372277786951681/photo/1


Nothing wrong with the cover. It's correct.

'Bodies with vaginas' is more accurate and inclusive when discussing a topic like this.

The Lancet is one of the most prestigious medical journals in the world, but their opinion is not worth considering because they use terminology you don't like?

Eventually you will have to accept the fact that medical science backs us up more and more.
 
So you think the granting of transgender rights was a populist decision, predicated on securing the support of the electorate for the purpose of re-election?

I've got news for you on that one.....


(Oh, and I don't know how the Australian parliament works, but here in the UK proposed new legislation such as this is always subject to public consultation and select-committee hearings featuring all interested parties. And, while the Government proposes new legislation and ultimately enacts it, it's up to parliament to actually approve it. Here in the UK, this also means getting the approval of the House of Lords, which (these days) is a group predominantly containing learned experts across pretty much every field. The Lords frequently request amendments to proposed legislation. There are plenty of checks and balances in the system here.)

I didn’t say that. I said government is about getting re-elected.

I know how upper houses work. They don’t vote on the recommendations of experts. They vote on political self interest.

Your contention that bills are passed due to expert opinion is incorrect.
 
Nothing wrong with the cover.
If you look at the full passage, you may well find it problematic nonetheless.

Historically, the anatomy and physiology of bodies with vaginas have been neglected—for example, the paucity in understanding of endometriosis and the way women's pain has been seen as more likely to have an emotional or psychological cause, a hangover from centuries of theorising about hysteria. This exhibition and the Vagina Museum as a whole aim to redress this lack of attention.

Seems to me the author has failed to fully internalize the idea that some "bodies with vaginas" are not experiencing "women's pain" but rather pain associated with being a uterus haver.
 
I can only assume that you have watched the Monty Python clip referred to in that post,

but anyone who hasn't watched it, should.

I have. But I also find it to border on inappropriate in this thread. It's funny, in the right context... but I can also understand how someone who is transgender might view it as mocking or demeaning.
 
Which is of course a flat contradiction in terms.


And in any case since cis-females are nothing more than "...bodies with vaginas..." to quote The Lancet's latest cover (See the tweeted image below), their opinion is not worth considering.



https://twitter.com/TheLancet/status/1441372277786951681/photo/1

You know, the activists complain about females insisting that sex is real and impactful, and call that "biological essentialism"... but 100% support referring to us as "bodies with vaginas".

It's insulting. It's also creepy af.
 
You know, the activists complain about females insisting that sex is real and impactful, and call that "biological essentialism"... but 100% support referring to us as "bodies with vaginas".

It's insulting. It's also creepy af.

It also seems indicative that there's a core of this movement that either doesn't care about women (by the standard definition) or is antipathetic towards them.

You'd think they'd realize that this is making a lot of women angry and ultimately won't further their cause (& we've seen that in these threads). You either completely agree with the ideology or you're a bigot literally trying to erase trans-people existence. :boggled:
 
I can sympathize with this. When I was growing up, I liked girls, in that little kid way of course. Even later on in my childhood when I started wearing my mom's dresses and makeup, I never did it to attract guys, because I wasn't into that at the time (Which is why I don't like when people try to use sexual attraction as a reason why we transition). I did still get a thrill from it at the time, but I don't think it was really a sexual thing since I started when I was about 9.

But after I hit puberty, something changed. I started looking at the boys more and more and realized I was sexually attracted to them, but not that much to the girls I liked before. Over time as I realized a lot of things about myself, I think envy and jealousy of cis girls over what I didn't have at the time probably factored in. And the physical changes that male puberty brought helped make me more and more depressed.

I tried to fit in as a gay man, but that wasn't me, and I just isolated myself more and more from people. Now as a polysexual woman, I feel like how I should have felt all along and I'm finally happy. I've also started dating finally that I can feel like I can be with someone as me.
:) I'm happy for you! I hope you find someone you can truly bond with.

When it comes to AGP, it's not like the concept itself isn't a thing. It is. And I do agree with you that it's a fetish or paraphilia, and that I don't consider them truly transgender. Where Blanchard is wrong is that there aren't different types of trans people. There are transgender people like me, and then there are transvestites or cross-dressers like Shupe. You even said the categories you put transgender people into are either AGP or HSTS, and I've been arguing that there is no such real distinction between us who are actually transgender.
I actually agree with your view here. The current challenge when it comes to policy, is that the lobby and activism groups that are driving those policy decisions do NOT draw a distinction, and have been pushing the narrative that transvestites, cross-dressers, and even drag queens are all transgender, and should all be treated in exactly the same way that we wish to treat you. The major trans rights organizations are all pushing that there is no difference between you and Shupe, or between you and Yaniv. I think there's a difference - a very big and important difference, even if it's difficult to nail down. The handful of transgender people I know are almost all similar to you in their experiences and motivations. There's different degrees of comfort or discomfort with their genitalia, but overall the way they describe their journeys, the way they describe their feelings of how they fit into the world, are very similar. Unfortunately, the lobbying groups and activist organizations aren't taking those differing motivations into consideration.

We do have people in our community where it is clear they are just transitioning for a sexual thrill, and they typically aren't that welcome. I personally feel like they drag the rest of us down with them, but that's me.
I agree. This is what I was trying to get at earlier, and bungled. I am NOT comparing you to pedophiles, I'm comparing those fetishists to pedophiles. Both are paraphilias, and both have the potential to cause harm to other people. And just as the association with pedophile groups prevented the progress of gay rights in the past, so too I think that the association of fetishists is preventing the progress of trans rights today.

While I don't think gender dysphoria alone is necessary to be trans, I do feel like the motivations and actions of people like Shupe (in his own words) show him to be untrustworthy and deceptive in his goals.

As far as how to 'keep them out'? I still don't think it's that necessary as long as they don't pose a threat to us. And I don't think that just their presence alone is enough of a threat.
Their presence may not, but the behaviors that come along with their presence do.

It's AGP males who verbally abuse, threaten with rape and death, and advocate for harm to females. It's AGP males who attack elderly females at meetings to discuss the impact of proposed gender recognition reforms. It's AGP males who vandalize and smear hate-speech across rape shelters. It's AGP males that lobby to get domestic violence shelters shut down if they aren't given free access. It's AGP males who sexually harass rape survivors in shelters. It's AGP males who rape the females they are imprisoned with. It's AGP males who video themselves masturbating in female restrooms and post it on line. It's AGP males who creep on young girls. It's AGP males who post long and disturbing diatribes online about simulating periods and delving for used pads in the ladies' restroom. It's AGP males who try to induce lactation so they can get a thrill.

True transgender people like you have almost always been accepted into female spaces. You've always been in our restrooms and our locker rooms, and you've always been accepted as women, because you behave like females. Because you have care and compassion for the females around you. Because you respect our experiences, and you really are just trying to live your life. True transgender people like you have never really been a problem, and have never been viewed as a material threat by females. Objections to true transgender people like you have almost exclusively come from extremely religious people, and largely from males. But it hasn't been a mystery to females, we know you're out there, and for the vast majority of our history, we've accepted you.

But we aren't willing to accept the fetishists. And it's the fetishists driving the agenda right now. The agenda they drive, particularly self-id, gives them cover, and grants them access to use both you and I to feed their sexual fantasies without our consent.

I know it's a barrier for people like you, but that is why I want a requirement of a competent psychiatric evaluation, and an appropriate diagnosis. I don't want to slow down your journey... but I can't figure out any reasonable way to keep paraphiliacs from using both you and I as wank-material without it.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom