Discussion: Transwomen are not women (Part 7)

[Emily's Cat]

Exactly in biology/evolution we have males, females and non procreative individuals.

Among mammals - all mammals - even non-procreative individuals are still either male or female.

 

[LondonJohn]

It has nothing do with my opinion of you. It has to do with denying what are as close to facts as we get in biology. And I'm someone who spent a good number of years on research related to sex/development (& from an evolutionary viewpoint).

The fact that I apply the label male to you is dispassionate.

It's like a telling a astronomer that your feelings on astrology outweigh the astrophysics.

No. No it's not.

The analogy with astronomy/astrology would be if the world's expert astronomers revisited their opinion on astrology and now declared it to be a valid scientific pursuit in its own right, and that astrologers should now be considered members of the scientific community.


(It's a mixture of amusing and alarming that so many of the zealots in this thread are still pontificating as if transgender identity is some sort of fringe lunatic issue that has no support within the medical/scientific communities*. Or from major governments* and legislatures* in industrialised nations.)


* And yes, it bears repeating that for anyone making these ridiculous pronouncements about "men telling women what they think and what to do", all of these medial bodies & major governments and legislatures - y'know, the ones who are instigating the reforms you so despise and consider illegitimate - contain easily their fair share of females (and, to ward off more sophistry there might be claiming that the male scientists/politicians were themselves riding roughshod over the opinions of all their female colleagues.... well I don't remember any more than a couple of militant anti-trans female politicians complaining about the progressive laws that were/are being passed in ever-increasing numbers...)




ETA: edited on account of an embarrassing typing mistake on my part - writing ".... world's expert astrologers" when I meant to write "....astronomers". Now corrected - I apologise.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Which is a pants-on-head retarded reason. There's nothing wrong with adding more planets to the list.

I mostly objected because it messed up my mnemonic: "My Very Educated Mother Just Served Us Nine Pizza-Pies". Changing it to "My Very Educated Mother Just Served Us Nachos" messes up the cadence.

But... I think the logic used is reasonable. Unlike sex, there actually IS a spectrum of astronomical bodies that range from asteroids to planets and other bits of random solid objects. Just like any other taxonomy, lines need to be drawn with the understanding that they are somewhat arbitrary.

But sex isn't a taxonomy, and it isn't a spectrum. So the analogy fails in a stupendous fashion.

 

[Emily's Cat]

The analogy with astronomy/astrology would be if the world's expert astrologers revisited their opinion on astrology and now declared it to be a valid scientific pursuit in its own right, and that astrologers should now be considered members of the scientific community.

You have unintentionally hit the nail on the head.

Gender identity is to Biology and Medicine what Astrology is to Astrophysics and Cosmology.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I ran across this article form Shupe - the US's first official non0binary person.

It made me cry. It's long, but it's definitely worth the half hour to read. They talk about their journey through their experience, the effects it had on their life, being used as a political pawn by both sides, and their inability to get appropriate medical care for their condition.

Shupe's Story

 

[LondonJohn]

I was always a little curious about that. I found his discussions about being a transvestite compelling because he was able to make a simple distinction between "transvestite" and "drag queen" easily relatable to anyone listening.

Regarding whether he fancies women--the comment I remember was "most transvestites fancy women", rather than saying he personally does. He's talked about some experiences with women, but most seemed to be from significantly in his past. Out of sheer curiosity I'd been watching for cues about his own current orientation and rarely heard anything clear.

Regardless of the fact that she previously identified as a cisman transvestite, Eddie Izzard now identifies as nonbinary transgender, and prefers the pronouns "she"/"her".

Just as Elliot Page previously identified as a ciswoman, but now identifies as a transman.

In both cases, all that matters is how they identify presently. And to afford them the same rights and privileges (and restrictions) within society as anyone else. Which includes allowing (with caveats) Izzard to use the women's changing rooms and Page to use the men's changing rooms.

 

[LondonJohn]

You have unintentionally hit the nail on the head.

Gender identity is to Biology and Medicine what Astrology is to Astrophysics and Cosmology.

Woops. My mistake. I originally butted up on this, unaware that I'd mistakenly written "astrologers" rather than "astronomers" in my original post. I apologise.

 

[theprestige]

So the analogy fails in a stupendous fashion.

Hopefully no one is at all surprised at this development ; )

 

[Elaedith]

No. No it's not.

The analogy with astronomy/astrology would be if the world's expert astrologers revisited their opinion on astrology and now declared it to be a valid scientific pursuit in its own right, and that astrologers should now be considered members of the scientific community.

I assume you meant to say 'world's expert astronomers', because many astrologers already declare their pursuits to be valid.

And if the world's leading expert astronomers all declared astrology to be a 'valid scientific pursuit' then they would all be wrong.

 

[d4m10n]

Among mammals - all mammals - even non-procreative individuals are still either male or female.

Into which bin are you sorting genetically male, phenotypically female individuals with CAIS, no external genitalia, and internal testes?

 

[d4m10n]

Eddie Izzard was always a woman and Elliot Page was always a man.

In both cases, all that matters is how they identify presently.

One if these two approaches has to be wrong.

 

[LondonJohn]

We all know Eddie is male, regardless of how Eddie self IDs today

The issue of Izzard's biological sex is something entirely different from what I was actually talking about here. I was - and am - talking about Izzard's gender identity, and specifically how that appears to be casually disregarded by others' (here read: Emily's Cat's) declarations as to what Izzard's gender identity actually is (or should be).


See, as recently as 18 hours ago, Emily's Cat opined that there's no difference between Izzard (who, to reiterate, presently identifies as a nonbinary transgender person taking the pronouns "she"/"her").... and a "straight man who cross-dresses".


And some 24 hours ago, she came out with the following zinger (including a classy dead-gendering of Izzard as "Mr"):

If most people are going to perceive you as male despite a dress and makeup, then please, Mr. Izzard, use the men's room.

Adding, in the very next sentence, a further declarative insult of the "I-know-what-you-really-are" variety towards Elliot Page (including a classy dead-gendering of Page as "Ms"):

If most people are going to perceive you as female despite a suit and having removed your breasts, then please, Ms. Page, use the ladies'.

And few days ago, she wrote that Izzard is

objectively indistinguishable from a transvestite

(Emily's Cat knows what Izzard really is, and she intends to consider Izzard purely on her own terms of perception - lovely stuff!)


So, you know, as the English saying goes: "If the cap fits...."

 

[LondonJohn]

I assume you meant to say 'world's expert astronomers', because many astrologers already declare their pursuits to be valid.

And if the world's leading expert astronomers all declared astrology to be a 'valid scientific pursuit' then they would all be wrong.

Uhh yes, I did mean "astronomers". Apologies.

 

[Ziggurat]

(It's a mixture of amusing and alarming that so many of the zealots in this thread are still pontificating as if transgender identity is some sort of fringe lunatic issue that has no support within the medical/scientific communities*.

Nobody is doing that. You are conflating two completely different issues in creating this straw man.

What has no actual scientific support is the notion that sex in humans isn't binary. It is binary. This is well established and well understood, and is the result of literally hundreds of millions of years of evolution. That's an incredibly stable biological feature that we share in common with a LOT of other animals. You have to ignore what sex even is in order to draw any other conclusion.

The nature of transgenderism, transitioning, how society should treat transgender people, ALL of that is a separate issue. Concluding that sex is binary doesn't really dictate any particular conclusion on pretty much any of that. But if you can't recognize that, yes, sex is binary, then you're starting from a delusional perspective, and that's a bad place to begin.

 

[theprestige]

Into which bin are you sorting genetically male, phenotypically female individuals with CAIS, no external genitalia, and internal testes?

One of the exceedingly rare scenarios in which self-ID may very well be the best solution for everyone involved.

But one of the many red herrings in the school of fish deployed by the trans-activists is this appeal to highly unusual edge cases that aren't even remotely representative of the transgender movement.

 

[Ziggurat]

Into which bin are you sorting genetically male, phenotypically female individuals with CAIS, no external genitalia, and internal testes?

They are male, biologically speaking. But for most purposes most of them should be treated as female.

 

[Boudicca90]

I ran across this article form Shupe - the US's first official non0binary person.

It made me cry. It's long, but it's definitely worth the half hour to read. They talk about their journey through their experience, the effects it had on their life, being used as a political pawn by both sides, and their inability to get appropriate medical care for their condition.

Shupe's Story

The only thing that makes me sad about this person's story is that they were brainwashed with pseudoscience and anti-trans ideas from people like Blanchard.

In the end they were certainly a pawn, used to justify the false concept of 'autogynephilia' among trans women.

 

[Boudicca90]

One if these two approaches has to be wrong.

Privately vs. publicly.

 

[Elaedith]

The only thing that makes me sad about this person's story is that they were brainwashed with pseudoscience and anti-trans ideas from people like Blanchard.

In the end they were certainly a pawn, used to justify the false concept of 'autogynephilia' among trans women.

Are you saying Shupe's identity is up for debate?

 

[Louden Wilde]

One of the exceedingly rare scenarios in which self-ID may very well be the best solution for everyone involved.

But one of the many red herrings in the school of fish deployed by the trans-activists is this appeal to highly unusual edge cases that aren't even remotely representative of the transgender movement.

Exactly.

And again: humans are visually oriented, an ability to hear, we've got 5 digits per limb, 46 chromosomes, an ability to regulate our blood sugar levels, a cerebral cortex... And there are people born with aberrations in all these attributes in all these and many more. We don't say they're not human. Moreover, we know they would have had these attributes if were not for the disorder. Bringing up diseases/disorders only for traits related to sexual development is special pleading.