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Discussion: Transwomen are not women (Part 7)

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Emily's Cat said:
It doesn't need to be. You, and everyone else, can identify to themselves however they wish and however they believe.

What is up for debate, in my view, is whether or not your view of yourself entitles you to obligate other people to accept your identity as reality.

Consider: Oli London was assigned white at birth, but identifies as Korean. Oli has even gone so far as to surgically alter their physical features to that they look more Korean than what they were assigned at birth. Do you believe that everyone else, including people who were assigned Korean at birth, should be obligated to accept Oli London as actually being Korean?

Is London's identity up for debate?
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The quick answer would seem to be no. Thinking about it raised a question that seems interesting. Let's take all of your premises and suppose that Oli London has applied for an apartment and is denied. As well, there is sufficient evidence that the denial was because the apartment manager thought London was Korean based on appearance, and doesn't like Koreans.

Presuming that this is in a jurisdiction where racial discrimination in housing is outlawed, would the apartment manager have a valid defense if they pointed out that London is not Korean? I'm guessing no, because I expect the infraction is based on the manager's intent.

Here's where a more intriguing question occurred to me: let's say that there is an advocacy group that helps Koreans that have been discriminated against. Would it be appropriate for London to seek their assistance?

I don't actually have an immediate answer to my own question, but it was interesting enough that I wanted to raise it.
 
Louden Wilde said:
It has nothing do with my opinion of you. It has to do with denying what are as close to facts as we get in biology. And I'm someone who spent a good number of years on research related to sex/development (& from an evolutionary viewpoint).

The fact that I apply the label male to you is dispassionate.

It's like a telling a astronomer that your feelings on astrology outweigh the astrophysics.
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To be fair I do think Neill DeGrasse Tyson is wrong about Pluto.
 
sir drinks-a-lot said:
I never knew there was such a thing. Isn't the whole point of being non-binary to say that you're neither a male or female? Or both male and female?

I've probably got some terminology wrong here. Maybe the whole point of being non-binary to say that you're neither a man or a woman.
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It can be. There are enbys out there who don't identify with any gender. And there are others like my friend who have a mix of male and female attributes and don't identify specifically just as a man, but more genderfluid. He goes by he/they for that reason.
 
Meadmaker said:
While this was once considered a requirement, it is not today.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/ar... for therapy include,to make a fully informed
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It is and it isn't, you still need to find doctors who will agree to it. A woman does not need her husbands permission to get her tubes tied but for some reason it is required by a lot of doctors.

And the point still is relevant, how far along ones journey do they need to be to use the restrooms assigned to their gender? What needs to happen for them to be their gender in your eyes instead of that assigned at birth?
 
Emily's Cat said:
No, I'm thinking of Izzard just two years ago, and referencing the way that they had described themselves consistently for twenty-some years that I have been familiar with them as a comedian: As a male transvestite that fancies females.
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I was always a little curious about that. I found his discussions about being a transvestite compelling because he was able to make a simple distinction between "transvestite" and "drag queen" easily relatable to anyone listening.

Regarding whether he fancies women--the comment I remember was "most transvestites fancy women", rather than saying he personally does. He's talked about some experiences with women, but most seemed to be from significantly in his past. Out of sheer curiosity I'd been watching for cues about his own current orientation and rarely heard anything clear.
 
Boudicca90 said:
I know in Caitlyn Jenner's case, she felt like a woman even when she was competing as a man. She has stated how she started transitioning somewhat back then, but then she met Kris and she was convinced to stop.
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From The Guardian:
...says Jenner, “I had a life for 65 years. OK?” Besides which, “I liked Bruce. He was a good person. He did a lot in his life. Oh, ‘he didn’t even exist’. Yes he did exist! He worked his butt off. He won the [Olympic] Games. He raised amazing kids. He did a lot of very, very good things and it’s not like I just want to throw that away.”
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I think it's fair to conclude that Caitlyn wouldn't say she's always been a woman.
 
theprestige said:
To be fair I do think Neill DeGrasse Tyson is wrong about Pluto.
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Being an astronomy buff, I had issues with Pluto not being a planet at first as well.

Over time I realized why the decision was made and agreed with it, and a big part of that was that we found way more dwarf planets in our solar system that would also be considered full planets under our previous definition.

I realized I had a knee-jerk reaction based on what I was taught believing growing up, and what we all knew for 'certain' for a long time. And as new evidence came and shook my previous conceptions of the cosmos, I changed my opinion.

Seems relevant somehow...
 
Boudicca90 said:
Being an astronomy buff, I had issues with Pluto not being a planet at first as well.

Over time I realized why the decision was made and agreed with it, and a big part of that was that we found way more dwarf planets in our solar system that would also be considered full planets under our previous definition.

I realized I had a knee-jerk reaction based on what I was taught believing growing up, and what we all knew for 'certain' for a long time. And as new evidence came and shook my previous conceptions of the cosmos, I changed my opinion.

Seems relevant somehow...
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Nah. Because the sex definition has to work in a comparative/evolutionary context. There's overwhelming evidence this is the same process in other mammals (and beyond). You're essentially making a creationist argument (though to be fair, I haven't really heard an alternate definition, or none with any explanatory power).

The best analogy for being trans is sexual mimicry.
 
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Boudicca90 said:
I realized I had a knee-jerk reaction based on what I was taught believing growing up, and what we all knew for 'certain' for a long time. And as new evidence came and shook my previous conceptions of the cosmos, I changed my opinion.

Seems relevant somehow...
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There is no 'new evidence' regarding binary sex. Everything presented as evidence that sex is a spectrum has already been known for decades. It is being reframed ('deconstructed') to meet an ideological goal.
 
Boudicca90 said:
Being an astronomy buff, I had issues with Pluto not being a planet at first as well.

Over time I realized why the decision was made and agreed with it, and a big part of that was that we found way more dwarf planets in our solar system that would also be considered full planets under our previous definition.
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Which is a pants-on-head retarded reason. There's nothing wrong with adding more planets to the list.
 
ponderingturtle said:
It is and it isn't, you still need to find doctors who will agree to it. A woman does not need her husbands permission to get her tubes tied but for some reason it is required by a lot of doctors.
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Gatekeeping has always been a big issue when it comes to successfully transitioning.

A good example is how when I first transitioned through the VA, I felt like I had a much easier time than my friends did. Veterans tend to skew older, so they were all around their 50s-70s while I'm in my 30s. My friend that started around the same time I did, and with the same doctors, had to constantly prove herself when I didn't. And a lot of it had to do with that she was older and didn't 'fit the profile' I guess compared to me.

She has since gone much farther than I have or intend to and has a vagina now. But she had to fight for it when she shouldn't have had to.

And the point still is relevant, how far along ones journey do they need to be to use the restrooms assigned to their gender? What needs to happen for them to be their gender in your eyes instead of that assigned at birth?
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This is a tough question even for us. We dread going into a public restroom and have to deal with the possibility of people judging us and thinking we don't belong there. So often if we can't pass well enough, we hold it until we get home. Which can also lead to urinary and bladder issues over time.

In the first year of my transition, the hormones hadn't had enough time to do their thing and so I would use either the men's or women's restroom depending on how I looked that day and/or how occupied the restrooms were. A lot of times I would just hold it until I got somewhere safe to pee.
 
Emily's Cat said:
It's handy to have testiculators telling females what females are and what we should call ourselves. Clearly, prostate owners know better.
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It's a good job then that you know what Eddie Izzard is, better than she herself does.... :rolleyes:
 
Boudicca90 said:
It comes down to the fact that biology isn't as black and white as people like to think it is. For both sex and gender, there are a multitude of different individual factors that they are composed of. It is not trolling to point that out.
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Sex is pretty black and white, although sometimes secondary sex characteristics aren't. That would be the case with DSDs. Which virtually no transgender identified person has, so it's pretty much irrelevant to this discussion. For all material purposes within this discussion, sex is black and white.

Gender isn't biological at all.

Boudicca90 said:
I just use cis females or cis women when I need to make the distinction between us.
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A lot of adult human females find that term to be highly offensive and insulting.

You've several times claimed that you have always had more in common with females than with males. I've repeatedly asked what those commonalities are.

Any chance you'll ever answer this?
 
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