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The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part II

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Captain_Swoop said:
Current, wave and wind all contribute to the speed of a ship over the ground.
Why are you using degrees of latitude to work out the total distance sailed?
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OK, let's try distances instead.

18 knots x 6.55 hours = 117 nautical miles = 135.67 miles or, 218 km. So, 208 km to go. Just 5 km out either way. (Half way point of 426km is 213km).

Distance wise it was at the half-way stage, give or take 5 km.

Assumptions: Tallinn to Stockholm is 426 km. Utö to Stockholm is 193 km. The wreck is 40 km from Utö, South-South-East. However, Utö has very similar coordinates to the wreck so no real adjustment required, but we could allow for 20km or so more needed., say 213km away.

It had been travelling since 19:15 so by 1:48 (six hours and 33 minutes) it was 6.55 hours into its journey when it went off the radar.
 
Foster Zygote said:
I'm assuming you mean MI6.

Do you have a source for this claim, or is it just a widely believed fact, like alligators in the NYC sewers?
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The source is in the earlier post (NEW STATESMAN.


The author, Stephen Davis, revealed this six years before the Swedish government admitted to FSU/Russian cargo smuggling.
 
Vixen said:
OK, let's try distances instead.

18 knots x 6.55 hours = 117 nautical miles = 135.67 miles or, 218 km. So, 208 km to go. Just 5 km out either way. (Half way point of 426km is 213km).

Distance wise it was at the half-way stage, give or take 5 km.

Assumptions: Tallinn to Stockholm is 426 km. Utö to Stockholm is 193 km. The wreck is 40 km from Utö, South-South-East. However, Utö has very similar coordinates to the wreck so no real adjustment required, but we could allow for 20km or so more needed., say 213km away.

It had been travelling since 19:15 so by 1:48 (six hours and 33 minutes) it was 6.55 hours into its journey when it went off the radar.
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1:48 is when she sank... as you say went off the radar... are you claiming that the entire time the ship was going 18 knots including after she partially capsized? :boggled:
 
Vixen said:
Kurm's expedition has arrived!

https://twitter.com/malmrospt/status/1440577518893875207?s=20

According to TURUN SANOMAT a major aim is to examine nearby articles on the seabed. Marine scientist Peeter Ude tells the newspaper that they have sonar pictures of the containers, but it is not yet known whether they are related to Estonia. A delegate at a recent Survivors Group meeting, Ruotsalainen seemed to opine that these 'containers' might be the truck/s that by popular rumour in Finland caused the car deck to burn up with its inflammable cargo leaking, so the crew opened either the pilot door or the car ramp to get rid of it, and also would explain the stern ramp being opened slightly ajar at the top, to remove fumes. Thus the car deck got flooded, etcetera. Ruotsalainen also wondered why the captain would have tried to drive the sinking ship to a deep spot and not to the shallows. There was a suspicion that the captain - or the person who commanded the ship at the time of the accident - wanted to return the ship to the place where the cargo had been dropped.

ISTM if they are looking for the trucks carrying illicit cargo - supposedly covered up with pebbles by Sweden because of the radiation scare - someone else very probably already got there first, so I'll be surprised if they find either 'trucks' or the atlantic lock on the seabed.
Weather forecast tomorrow is a weather warning of very strong winds for 24 hours at up to 19 m/s, usually worse out at sea.
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Ah, an advance excuse. Nice.
 
whoanellie said:
1) It is a ferry. Wouldn't most of the passengers have their own connecting transport?
2) Do you have any evidence that the port authorities would impose a fine if the ferry arrived late for safety or passenger comfort reasons? Citations?

Do you just make this crap up?

From The Atlantic article:


Do you remember how important it is to believe the survivors?
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Common knowledge. Ports are like airports. Shipping lines and airline companies pay to use them.


They are 'authorities' and have legal powers such as customs and security, etc., etc.
 
Vixen said:
The KSI (Swedish), CIA and MI6 were helping Estonia set up its own intelligence agency after the KGB and the Soviets were kicked out in 1991 and it became independent.
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What exactly is the hypothesis here? Russian intelligence sank the Estonia to warn western intelligence services off of helping Estonia set up their own?
 
JayUtah said:
And that utterly failed to address a single thing I said. Why did you bring up the KGB in the linked post if your position is that, having been disbanded years earlier, they were irrelevant to the Estonia accident?
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Remind me what it is you are asking, or is it out of context again?
 
Vixen said:
Common knowledge.
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It's common knowledge that Swedish ports impose fines on ferries if they're late, for safety or passenger comfort reasons?

Got a reference for that?

"It's common knowledge" just doesn't cut the mustard round these parts.
 
Vixen said:
Kurm's expedition has arrived!




https://twitter.com/malmrospt/status/1440577518893875207?s=20


According to TURUN SANOMAT a major aim is to examine nearby articles on the seabed. Marine scientist Peeter Ude tells the newspaper that they have sonar pictures of the containers, but it is not yet known whether they are related to Estonia. A delegate at a recent Survivors Group meeting, Ruotsalainen seemed to opine that these 'containers' might be the truck/s that by popular rumour in Finland caused the car deck to burn up with its inflammable cargo leaking, so the crew opened either the pilot door or the car ramp to get rid of it, and also would explain the stern ramp being opened slightly ajar at the top, to remove fumes. Thus the car deck got flooded, etcetera. Ruotsalainen also wondered why the captain would have tried to drive the sinking ship to a deep spot and not to the shallows. There was a suspicion that the captain - or the person who commanded the ship at the time of the accident - wanted to return the ship to the place where the cargo had been dropped.

ISTM if they are looking for the trucks carrying illicit cargo - supposedly covered up with pebbles by Sweden because of the radiation scare - someone else very probably already got there first, so I'll be surprised if they find either 'trucks' or the atlantic lock on the seabed.

Weather forecast tomorrow is a weather warning of very strong winds for 24 hours at up to 19 m/s, usually worse out at sea.
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Wow, these guys sound like pros.

Hey, let's plan our expedition in the Baltic just as the seasonal weather goes to hell.

I wonder who will investigate their sinking?
 
JayUtah said:
You've provided no evidence that this happened, nor have you reconciled this with claims that others were somehow still able to communicate by cellular telephone.

You invoked a secondary source that cited Walter Hummel for this claim. But that provides no evidence. You simply declare that since Hummel is a "reputable marine engineer," who has, at times, "been willing to testify in court," we have to accept the claim. The claim is absurd on its face, and neither Hummel's reputation in a profession irrelevant to telephony nor his participation in irrelevant legal proceedings stands as evidence for an allegation of fact.
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Hummel was actually a sea captain and is hardly going to be a keyboard 'truther warrior'.

The NSA of the United States, the intelligence and spy agency which monitors signal intelligence around the world, reportedly has a file of documents about the Estonia catastrophe which remain classified more than 13 years after the passenger and car ferry supposedly sank due to a faulty bow visor. Why would the NSA maintain top-secret files about an innocent ship wreck in the Baltic Sea in 1994?

Wilson wrote:
Werner Hummel, the German investigator, said that his Group had documentation showing that the regional telephone network servicing the catastrophe site failed just as it was needed most. The malfunction was truly a startling coincidence. The telephone company stated its entire radio communications network, for unknown reasons, had been down from 1:03 to 1:58 a.m. – almost exactly the time the Estonia first encountered trouble until the time it disappeared from radar.?
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https://redice.tv/news/the-sinking-of-estonia

Come to think of it I cannot recall one single survivor or one single relative of one of the victims saying they had received a phone call or phone message during the disaster. Even the 9/11 victims on the aeroplanes and lifts managed to ring their loved ones to say a last goodbye.
 
Jack by the hedge said:
You were asked to support the midpoint claim and the one about it's being about to leave international waters, but you posted something that didn't do so. Do you want to try again?

How did you calculate, or confirm someone else's calculation of the midpoint of its route?

At what point would it have left international waters?

You might well think these are trivial observations and a very rough estimate is fine, but it is you who brings them up as significant factors. You imply that they are symbolic messages from murderous saboteurs. If they are important, substantiate your claims. If they are not important stop pretending they are.
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A recent court in Sweden confirmed it was in international waters, so there is your legal precedent, even though Evertsson is a Swedish national, which is why he was prosecuted.

The archipelago waters to the east of the Ålands is Finnish waters, to the west, it is Sweden's. It is the bit in the gulf that is international waters. Utö is the outlier.
 
Here_to_learn said:
What?

The harbor used by Estonia in Stockholm was (and is) Frihamnen. The route in/out of Stockholm archipelago was either via Sandhamn or Söderarm.

There are cruise ferries today from two harbors in central Stockholm. They don't have to worry about connecting traffic. Ferries to/from Nynäshamn and Kapellskär do have to match connecting traffic.

Having said that, cruise ship time schedules are certainly tight. But Estonia spent all day in harbor (morning arrival, evening departure) and as such did not have the same type of time pressure as those ferries that turn around in a couple of hours.
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Oh, right. I've only used it for the Silja and Viking lines. IIRC had to take a coach through the countryside to get to the city centre.

Then the other year from an airport said by Easyjet to be 'Stockholm' but was actually way out in the sticks. I can't recall how I got to the boat but I resolved in future to be more wary of cheapo flights.
 
Vixen said:
Remind me what it is you are asking, or is it out of context again?
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What I'm asking is right there in the post that you quoted and have now evaded for the second time. If you follow the quote links back, you'll find a link that establishes the context, your post on the subject. And this point I have to conclude your evasion is deliberate.
 
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