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The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part II

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Vixen said:

  • it happens at midnight
  • it happens when the bridge watch is changing
  • it happens at the mid-point of the journey
  • it happens in international waters
  • it happens when Channel 16 is blovked by signals from a Russian military base
  • it happens when the entire phone network is down
  • it happens when the APIRB buoys (or 'boo-wees') are switched off



Riiiiight.
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You were asked to support the midpoint claim and the one about it's being about to leave international waters, but you posted something that didn't do so. Do you want to try again?

How did you calculate, or confirm someone else's calculation of the midpoint of its route?

At what point would it have left international waters?

You might well think these are trivial observations and a very rough estimate is fine, but it is you who brings them up as significant factors. You imply that they are symbolic messages from murderous saboteurs. If they are important, substantiate your claims. If they are not important stop pretending they are.
 
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Vixen said:
  • it happens at midnight (not in evidence that the first bang was heard at exactly midnight)
  • it happens when the bridge watch is changing (OK seems like a witness confirms this occurred approximately when signs the ship was in trouble)
  • it happens at the mid-point of the journey(yes, approximately not exactly, and so?!?)
  • it happens in international waters (false, words have meaning. International waters means not in an economic exclusive zone, the Baltic is entirely in one country or anothers zone. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_waters)
  • it happens when Channel 16 is blovked by signals from a Russian military base (this is not in evidence, could have been equipment failure, user error, unintentional interference, someone else blocking the signal)
  • it happens when the entire phone network is down (not in evidence... how did they make a phone call if the entire network was down)
  • it happens when the APIRB buoys (or 'boo-wees') are switched off (you've been given links and told that this isn't true, that is not how EPIRB buoys work)

Riiiiight. <fx broad Brummie accent: Yes, mate!> Are you doing like an Ozzie impersonation here :confused:
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Highlighted bits are my reply.
 
JayUtah said:
You've provided no evidence that this happened, nor have you reconciled this with claims that others were somehow still able to communicate by cellular telephone.
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Stupid but serious question. What cell phone network should have been working in the middle of the Baltic Sea in 1994?
 
whoanellie said:
Stupid but serious question. What cell phone network should have been working in the middle of the Baltic Sea in 1994?
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It was Vixens claim earlier on that some members of the crew called a shore station on a cell phone. Which has at least some backing with some sources. This does not jibe with her claim that the entire phone network was down. Its not possible to complete a cellular call if the network is down. The sinking really wasn't in the middle of the Baltic. IE not as far from shore as one can get. The Scandinavian/Baltic region was really a pioneer in cellular tech back then. So its not implausible that such a call was possible.
 
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whoanellie said:
Stupid but serious question. What cell phone network should have been working in the middle of the Baltic Sea in 1994?
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The claim, as I recall it, was that some particular form of radiotelephone contact was used, probably cellular. But as that system used the regular telephone landlines as a backhaul, the claim is inconsistent with the other claim of the entire telephone system being unavailable for the better part of an hour.
 
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Vixen said:
The passenger cruise ferries run a tight schedule as they need to get the passengers to their connecting transport at the other end on time (it actually debarks at Sodertalje which is some distance away from Stockholm).
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What?

The harbor used by Estonia in Stockholm was (and is) Frihamnen. The route in/out of Stockholm archipelago was either via Sandhamn or Söderarm.

There are cruise ferries today from two harbors in central Stockholm. They don't have to worry about connecting traffic. Ferries to/from Nynäshamn and Kapellskär do have to match connecting traffic.

Having said that, cruise ship time schedules are certainly tight. But Estonia spent all day in harbor (morning arrival, evening departure) and as such did not have the same type of time pressure as those ferries that turn around in a couple of hours.
 
The claim that the entire phone system was down (which entire phone system?) has exactly the kind of BS alarm bell ring as those UFO tales where all the plane's instruments suddenly started giving no readings etc. It reeks of a story much improved in the telling.
 
Jack by the hedge said:
It reeks of a story much improved in the telling.
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In my experience such stories often begin as a nugget of truth and then, as you say, blossom in the retelling. This is why it's important not to rely on sources too far removed from the original authority. In my city, if the entire phone network had been out of service for an hour in 1994 there would have been multiple sources of evidence to that effect, even seen from years later. When the only source for such an extraordinary claim seems to be the second-hand retelling of a claim attributed to someone who is in so many other ways embroiled in the Estonia controversy, yet a third person's retelling of it doesn't enjoy a lot of prima facie credibility.
 
Update on RS Sentinel

Kurm's expedition has arrived!


Tidigt imorse anlände RS Sentinel till ms Estonias förlisningsplats.
Spännande att följa vad som händer härnäst.
Translated from Swedish by
Early this morning, RS Sentinel arrived at MS Estonia's shipwreck site.
Exciting to follow what happens next.
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https://twitter.com/malmrospt/status/1440577518893875207?s=20


According to TURUN SANOMAT a major aim is to examine nearby articles on the seabed. Marine scientist Peeter Ude tells the newspaper that they have sonar pictures of the containers, but it is not yet known whether they are related to Estonia. A delegate at a recent Survivors Group meeting, Ruotsalainen seemed to opine that these 'containers' might be the truck/s that by popular rumour in Finland caused the car deck to burn up with its inflammable cargo leaking, so the crew opened either the pilot door or the car ramp to get rid of it, and also would explain the stern ramp being opened slightly ajar at the top, to remove fumes. Thus the car deck got flooded, etcetera. Ruotsalainen also wondered why the captain would have tried to drive the sinking ship to a deep spot and not to the shallows. There was a suspicion that the captain - or the person who commanded the ship at the time of the accident - wanted to return the ship to the place where the cargo had been dropped.

ISTM if they are looking for the trucks carrying illicit cargo - supposedly covered up with pebbles by Sweden because of the radiation scare - someone else very probably already got there first, so I'll be surprised if they find either 'trucks' or the atlantic lock on the seabed.

Weather forecast tomorrow is a weather warning of very strong winds for 24 hours at up to 19 m/s, usually worse out at sea.
 
Vixen said:
Ruotsalainen seemed to opine that these 'containers' might be the truck/s that by popular rumour in Finland caused the car deck to burn up with its inflammable cargo leaking, so the crew opened either the pilot door or the car ramp to get rid of it, and also would explain the stern ramp being opened slightly ajar at the top, to remove fumes. Thus the car deck got flooded, etcetera. Ruotsalainen also wondered why the captain would have tried to drive the sinking ship to a deep spot and not to the shallows. There was a suspicion that the captain - or the person who commanded the ship at the time of the accident - wanted to return the ship to the place where the cargo had been dropped.
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Oh goody, a whole new conspiracy, and just as ******* crazy as the rest!
 
Vixen said:
Kurm's expedition has arrived!




https://twitter.com/malmrospt/status/1440577518893875207?s=20


According to TURUN SANOMAT a major aim is to examine nearby articles on the seabed. Marine scientist Peeter Ude tells the newspaper that they have sonar pictures of the containers, but it is not yet known whether they are related to Estonia. A delegate at a recent Survivors Group meeting, Ruotsalainen seemed to opine that these 'containers' might be the truck/s that by popular rumour in Finland caused the car deck to burn up with its inflammable cargo leaking, so the crew opened either the pilot door or the car ramp to get rid of it, and also would explain the stern ramp being opened slightly ajar at the top, to remove fumes. Thus the car deck got flooded, etcetera. Ruotsalainen also wondered why the captain would have tried to drive the sinking ship to a deep spot and not to the shallows. There was a suspicion that the captain - or the person who commanded the ship at the time of the accident - wanted to return the ship to the place where the cargo had been dropped.

ISTM if they are looking for the trucks carrying illicit cargo - supposedly covered up with pebbles by Sweden because of the radiation scare - someone else very probably already got there first, so I'll be surprised if they find either 'trucks' or the atlantic lock on the seabed.

Weather forecast tomorrow is a weather warning of very strong winds for 24 hours at up to 19 m/s, usually worse out at sea.
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Now the car deck was on fire so they opened the bow visor to push the truck overboard?

In a storm with the ship doing 18kts?

Who thought of this story?

Were they high?
 
junkshop said:
Oh goody, a whole new conspiracy, and just as ******* crazy as the rest!
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Oh this is a whole new level of crazy/stupid conspiracy nonsense.

Fires on ships are hugely serious - and hugely dangerous - problems. There would have to have been multiple smoke sensors and heat sensors on every deck, including the vehicle deck, plus automatic fire suppression systems of varying kinds.

So..... if this (ridiculous) theory about mystery hazardous inflammable cargo suddenly lighting up had truly occurred (oh, and most events like this require an ignition source....), the bridge would have been awash with lights and alarms. And it's also very likely that an automated public announcement would have been broadcast to passengers over the PA system. Yet, of course, not one person recalls any of this actually having happened.

Seriously, how much more indication is required that these nutters - however well-meaning or "investigative" they might be - are manifestly unqualified/uneducated/ill-informed to be worth even listening to?
 
Vixen said:
Kurm's expedition has arrived!
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Kurm could have saved himself the effort by staying at home for a month, standing under a cold shower, continually tearing up $100 bills, and reading this ISF thread.
 
It seems the expedition has covered it's back if these mystery containers that were jettisoned from the ship aren't found. Swedish navy divers have hidden or removed them already.

If they don't find them it proves the Sweden is covering things up.
 
Vixen said:
According to TURUN SANOMAT a major aim is to examine nearby articles on the seabed. Marine scientist Peeter Ude tells the newspaper that they have sonar pictures of the containers, but it is not yet known whether they are related to Estonia. A delegate at a recent Survivors Group meeting, Ruotsalainen seemed to opine that these 'containers' might be the truck/s that by popular rumour in Finland caused the car deck to burn up with its inflammable cargo leaking, so the crew opened either the pilot door or the car ramp to get rid of it, and also would explain the stern ramp being opened slightly ajar at the top, to remove fumes. Thus the car deck got flooded, etcetera. Ruotsalainen also wondered why the captain would have tried to drive the sinking ship to a deep spot and not to the shallows. There was a suspicion that the captain - or the person who commanded the ship at the time of the accident - wanted to return the ship to the place where the cargo had been dropped.
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Given that it's your view that the Estonia was sunk by an obvious act of sabotage, with all the hallmarks of an act of precision military by the KGB/FSB, then I take it that you don't give any credence to this new hypothesis?
 
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