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Discussion: Transwomen are not women (Part 7)

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ponderingturtle said:
Look we have Penis rooms and Vulva rooms, if you have something inbetween clearly you can go into neither. Phaloclitorus right out of either.
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For the 0.02% of people with a DSD that makes their secondary sex characteristics truly ambiguous, they get to pick whichever restroom they wish. I'm also perfectly comfortable with them viewing their disorder as a disability and claiming the disabled spaces.
 
Emily's Cat said:
:rolleyes: Don't you ever get tired of manufacturing strawmen?

That's not at all a victory for females, it's a complete and utter failure of rationality and a demonstration of exactly WHY sex matters more than gender identity.
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And it was clearly the persons fault for pretending to be a man, if she hadn't done that no problem. Hence the victory for true women. You should feel proud, her pretending to be a man cost her dearly.
 
ponderingturtle said:
Look you demand people use facilities congruent of their genitals and yet don't inspect those genitals before entrance. How is anyone supposed to know the state for sure of what someone's genitals are with out some kind of indicator? I mean what if some trans woman uses the woman's locker room and no one sees her penis, that penis is still a threat and she needs to be punished for the penis. So there needs to be some clear way of identifying trans people. And if we are doing that why limit it to trans people?

What system to identify all trans people to make sure they are not using the criminally associated bathrooms and all those totally not at all transphobic laws passed down south would you use?
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I do get very tired of your malicious misrepresentations.

In 99% of cases, the genitals are accurate for the visible secondary sex characteristics. If it looks like a female, it's probably a female. If it looks like a male, it's probably a male.

Given that starting point, if a transgender person passes well enough to not stand out, they can use the facilities of their selected gender - with the exception of prisons, where genitals actually do get seen during processing.

I've repeatedly used a common-sense approach: use the facility that the majority of people are going to assume you ought to use. If most people are going to perceive you as male despite a dress and makeup, then please, Mr. Izzard, use the men's room. If most people are going to perceive you as female despite a suit and having removed your breasts, then please, Ms. Page, use the ladies'. If you manage to actually pull off androgyny well enough to really end up in between, then lucky you, use whatever you want - but if you select the room that your genitals don't belong in, then make damned sure you keep them covered.

Why TF is this so difficult?
 
Emily's Cat said:
We can depend on clocking about 99% of people, which is pretty damned good. Visual categorization of human sex is more accurate than any non-trivial predictive modeling.
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You clock trans men after top surgery and a couple years of T at a 99% rate? I doubt it.
 
Emily's Cat said:
I do get very tired of your malicious misrepresentations.

In 99% of cases, the genitals are accurate for the visible secondary sex characteristics. If it looks like a female, it's probably a female. If it looks like a male, it's probably a male.

Given that starting point, if a transgender person passes well enough to not stand out, they can use the facilities of their selected gender - with the exception of prisons, where genitals actually do get seen during processing.

I've repeatedly used a common-sense approach: use the facility that the majority of people are going to assume you ought to use. If most people are going to perceive you as male despite a dress and makeup, then please, Mr. Izzard, use the men's room. If most people are going to perceive you as female despite a suit and having removed your breasts, then please, Ms. Page, use the ladies'. If you manage to actually pull off androgyny well enough to really end up in between, then lucky you, use whatever you want - but if you select the room that your genitals don't belong in, then make damned sure you keep them covered.

Why TF is this so difficult?
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Because that is clearly not good enough for some, we have seen those afraid of a possible penis in the next hospital bed. Clearly depending on her ability to clock trans people is not enough. She needs to know for sure.
 
Emily's Cat said:
I've repeatedly used a common-sense approach: use the facility that the majority of people are going to assume you ought to use. If most people are going to perceive you as male despite a dress and makeup, then please, Mr. Izzard, use the men's room. If most people are going to perceive you as female despite a suit and having removed your breasts, then please, Ms. Page, use the ladies'. If you manage to actually pull off androgyny well enough to really end up in between, then lucky you, use whatever you want - but if you select the room that your genitals don't belong in, then make damned sure you keep them covered.
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This is the approach which seems most sensible to me, with the proviso that I'd like to see more single-person facilities in new builds.

I've no idea what LondonJohn and PonderingTurtle would prefer to see instituted in its place, but if I had to guess: Anyone can self-identify into any facilities and proprietors have to take their word for it on pain of litigation.
 
d4m10n said:
This is the approach which seems most sensible to me, with the proviso that I'd like to see more single-person facilities in new builds.

I've no idea what LondonJohn and PonderingTurtle would prefer to see instituted in its place, but if I had to guess: Anyone can self-identify into any facilities and proprietors have to take their word for it on pain of litigation.
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To be fair, LJ recently indicated he might actually support the "papers, please" approach.
 
d4m10n said:
Here are a few safety-related factors discussed so far:

  1. External genitalia
  2. Gonads w/ small motile gametes
  3. Physical possibility of forcible insemination
  4. Statistically increased likelihood of sexual assault
Notice how the third requires the first two, and how the fourth becomes much more salient due to the third.

Notice also how the list applies to males in our species, not to mention other primates.

Notice, finally, how people are fairly quick to infer the last three factors from the first one.
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When it comes to transgender females like me, there are some big misconceptions you have here.

We aren't all the same of course, but while I still have a penis and testicles, they aren't as functional as you seem to assume.

This may be TMI, but they have atrophied significantly and while I can still get an erection, it still isn't enough for penetration usually (even then, getting an erection in general is more difficult to impossible for us). I struggle just to successfully masturbate. And there is no possibility of insemination as I produce hardly any sperm or semen anymore. I've been shooting blanks for a while now. It also decreases possibility of sexual assault as we tend to lack the testosterone or physical ability to desire to in the first place.

The penis of a trans female is not the same as the penis of a cis male.
 
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Boudicca90 said:
When it comes to transgender females like me, there are some big misconceptions you have here.

We aren't all the same of course, but while I still have a penis and testicles, they aren't as functional as you seem to assume.
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The penis of a trans female is not the same as the penis of a cis male.
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The penis of some trans females is not the same as the penis of cis males.

While folks like yourself (which I think we all agree are highly unlikely to be a danger to females) take hormones and have those effects, It's clear a lot don't.

We need a way to separate the groups (i.e. not self-ID).
 
Emily's Cat said:
I do get very tired of your malicious misrepresentations.

In 99% of cases, the genitals are accurate for the visible secondary sex characteristics. If it looks like a female, it's probably a female. If it looks like a male, it's probably a male.

Given that starting point, if a transgender person passes well enough to not stand out, they can use the facilities of their selected gender - with the exception of prisons, where genitals actually do get seen during processing.
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There was nothing malicious or any misrepresentations with what he said. It was accurate.

Despite your apparent god-like knowledge to discern who we really are, I guarantee if you met me in person, you would not be able to tell I was once a guy. And this will be the case more and more as we come out earlier and can make decisions about our own biology.

I've repeatedly used a common-sense approach: use the facility that the majority of people are going to assume you ought to use. If most people are going to perceive you as male despite a dress and makeup, then please, Mr. Izzard, use the men's room. If most people are going to perceive you as female despite a suit and having removed your breasts, then please, Ms. Page, use the ladies'. If you manage to actually pull off androgyny well enough to really end up in between, then lucky you, use whatever you want - but if you select the room that your genitals don't belong in, then make damned sure you keep them covered.

Why TF is this so difficult?
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Your approach isn't '"common-sense", it is blatantly exclusionary. Eddie Izzard is a woman and can use women's facilities and Elliot Page is a man and can use men's facilities. You can make excuses for your transphobia all you want, but you don't get the right to deny them, or me, our equal rights.

Hell, you can't even call me a woman, instead referring to me as 'they' and 'them' now to try to get around it and so you don't run afoul of the mods. Your bigotry will die out, and you will be left screaming into the void.
 
Louden Wilde said:
The penis of some trans females is not the same as the penis of cis males.

While folks like yourself (which I think we all agree are highly unlikely to be a danger to females) take hormones and have those effects, It's clear a lot don't.

We need a way to separate the groups (i.e. not self-ID).
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Yay! More segregation! That has fixed so many of our problems in the past! :rolleyes:
 
Boudicca90 said:
We aren't all the same of course, but while I still have a penis and testicles, they aren't as functional as you seem to assume.
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To be clear, I see no need to make any assumptions about your personal equipment since you aren't showing it off to fellow gym/spa patrons. My points were more about males in general and the potential threat people like myself are perceived to pose on account of longstanding inequities between the sexes.
 
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d4m10n said:
To be clear, I see no need to make any assumptions about your personal equipment since you aren't showing it off to fellow gym/spa patrons. My points were more about males in general and the potential threat people like myself are perceived to pose on account of longstanding inequities between the sexes.
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If your point was about males in general, then don't bring us into it in the first place. We aren't male.
 
Boudicca90 said:
Yay! More segregation! That has fixed so many of our problems in the past! :rolleyes:
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Do you admit that females (those born with a female reproductive tract/characteristics) have been oppressed/exploited/discriminated against because of those attributes?

If you don't admit that, then there's not much common ground for discussion.

They want their own spaces, representation, sports, etc. What you are saying is that you and anyone who says the magic words (I am trans) can enter those spaces, take that representation, etc.
 
Boudicca90 said:
If your point was about males in general, then don't bring us into it in the first place. We aren't male.
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Sorry - I get that you don't like the label. But biologically, that's what TW are. It really hurts any discussion and your credibility when you say things like this.
 
Louden Wilde said:
Do you admit that females (those born with a female reproductive tract/characteristics) have been oppressed/exploited/discriminated against because of those attributes?

If you don't admit that, then there's not much common ground for discussion.

They want their own spaces, representation, sports, etc. What you are saying is that you and anyone who says the magic words (I am trans) can enter those spaces, take that representation, etc.
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Of course cis females have been, and are, oppressed and discriminated against based on their biology. I've never denied that.

That has no relevance to this discussion.
 
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