Discussion: Transwomen are not women (Part 7)

[Meadmaker]

Though of course you are totally comfortable with a bearded trans guy in there ...

You're slipping. You actually got someone's position correct. Your subsequent explanation was wrong, but one thing that has been consistent through seven continuations is that people have said transmen should have the right to female segregated spaces.

 

[Meadmaker]

To many here this is a true victory for females.

If you were interested in accurately presenting or understanding what people really think of that case, it was discussed at length in the earlier continuations of the thread.

But I don't think accurate presentation is one of your high priorities.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Look we have Penis rooms and Vulva rooms, if you have something inbetween clearly you can go into neither. Phaloclitorus right out of either.

 

[ponderingturtle]

If you were interested in accurately presenting or understanding what people really think of that case, it was discussed at length in the earlier continuations of the thread.

But I don't think accurate presentation is one of your high priorities.

Look he was claiming to be a pregnant man, of course the hospital thought that was ridiculous what else should they have done, take him seriously? The hospital did exactly what most here would support.;

 

[ponderingturtle]

You're slipping. You actually got someone's position correct. Your subsequent explanation was wrong, but one thing that has been consistent through seven continuations is that people have said transmen should have the right to female segregated spaces.

Which is why you can't complain about men in the women's locker room until you see their genitals.

Yes I do understand this part of the antitrans position. Though trans men tend to get ignored and forgotten.

 

[theprestige]

To many here this is a true victory for females.

"When the man arrived at the hospital with severe abdominal pains, a nurse didn't consider it an emergency, noting that he was obese and had stopped taking blood pressure medicines. In reality, he was pregnant — a transgender man in labor that was about to end in a stillbirth."

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2019/05/16/pregnant-transgender-man-births-stillborn-baby-hospital-missed-labor-signs/3692201002/

You're late. This case was discussed at some length here, several installments ago.

 

[d4m10n]

Though trans men tend to get ignored and forgotten.

So much so that they don't even show up in the OP. It's almost as if women's spaces/leagues are somehow more salient, having been created relatively recently as a result of civil rights activism.

 

[Louden Wilde]

Look we have Penis rooms and Vulva rooms, if you have something inbetween clearly you can go into neither. Phaloclitorus right out of either.

Congenital adrenal hyperplasia (CAH) is the most common of the conditions considered DSDs - females with the condition sometimes have enlarged clitorises, but they are unambiguously female.

Your other issue - of the pregnant 'man'- is another example of sex being more important than gender/gender ID. Which is the point of many of us here :-|

 

[gnome]

Andy Lewis has several good entries on this topic on his quackometer blog.

On the Sex Deracination Gambit

On the Ontology and Epistemology of Sex

The Capture of Nature

On the existence of females

Tribal Scepticism

It's been interesting reading and does help clarify.

The case I would make is that any policy (such as changing rooms, sports, prisons) that is based on sex, is ultimately based on a consequence of a sexual characteristic. Just for example, if a reason to have segregated changing rooms is to accommodate the expected preference by women to avoid seeing a penis, the determining factor is not the person's biological sex but whether the person has a penis--be it from surgery or nature.

So seems to me the question of how to classify biological sex in unusual examples is not very useful in proposing policy. Boudicca may well be mistaken in scientifically accepted taxonomy, but the matter of whether it is correct to say male or female is irrelevant when evaluating a policy of "no penises here", and shouldn't we stick with considering if that is a valid reason to segregate in that context?

This would go for other examples. "No males here because males have (x) characteristic that is harmful or objectionable or unfair to those present"... the determining factor is (x), not maleness.

 

[d4m10n]

"No males here because males have (x) characteristic that is harmful or objectionable or unfair to those present"... the determining factor is (x), not maleness.

Here are a few safety-related factors discussed so far:

1. External genitalia
2. Gonads w/ small motile gametes
3. Physical possibility of forcible insemination
4. Statistically increased likelihood of sexual assault

Notice how the third requires the first two, and how the fourth becomes much more salient due to the third.

Notice also how the list applies to males in our species, not to mention other primates.

Notice, finally, how people are fairly quick to infer the last three factors from the first one.

 

[Louden Wilde]

Here are a few safety-related factors discussed so far:

1. External genitalia
2. Gonads w/ small motile gametes
3. Physical possibility of forcible insemination
4. Statistically increased likelihood of sexual assault

Notice how the third requires the first two, and how the fourth becomes much more salient due to the third.

Notice also how the list applies to males in our species, not to mention other primates.

Notice, finally, how people are fairly quick to infer the last three factors from the first one.

Well put. There was a thread several of participated in and posted links to papers where authors noted that male chimps force female chimps into intercourse (Bonobos not as much - apparently because the females band together and stop it).

For much of my research career I worked with two closely rodent species, one of which was one of the rare monogamous mammals. That species has reduced sexual dimorphism (males & females about the same size). When I would set up mating pairs in the monogamous species, I wouldn't always get pregnancies, but I did not see males attempting to forcibly mount females. In non-monogamous species, I'd almost always get pregnancies, but frequently saw what in humans we would call rape.

 

[Olmstead]

Look we have Penis rooms and Vulva rooms, if you have something inbetween clearly you can go into neither. Phaloclitorus right out of either.

In other words, you should be arguing for unisex rooms. But you don't want to do that, either because you don't believe in that or because you don't think it would work, so you hide behind a bunch of nonsense.

Remove all sex segregation, problem solved. Intellectually honest too.

 

[Meadmaker]

Which is why you can't complain about men in the women's locker room until you see their genitals.

Dude, you are seriously losing your touch here. Usually, your straw men and wild and distorted caricatures are barely recognizable, but for the second time today you have come perilously close to accurately stating someone's position. Not only that, but you stayed within the thread topic doing it.

I don't want to be unfair about it. No one would ever actually say such a thing, so you haven't completely lost it. It's just that what people would actually say isn't all that far from that. It's a recognizable position.

What people would actually say is that there are people who have every right to women's facilities even though it would be very, very easy to mistake them for males. In some cases, like you mentioned beards specifically, almost everyone would make that mistake. So, we would all recommend that if you intend to complain about a man in the women's locker room, use a bit of caution. Sometimes, judging a book by its cover doesn't work, and that could end up embarrassing for everyone.

So, let's see you try to get back to your old form. Don't worry. Take a little time. Go back to the fundamentals. You just might have to put a little extra time. Make sure, when you post a caricature of someone's beliefs, that there is no possibility that anyone would ever actually believe what you wrote. This one was just coming very, very close to the line of reality here.

Yes I do understand this part of the antitrans position. Though trans men tend to get ignored and forgotten.

Ignored and forgotten? Well, this came up with Boudica90 just yesterday or the day before. If you want to understand it, you can read her answer. She was pretty accurate. However, this is very important. Do not repeat her answer. She put a bit of spin on it, so it wasn't completely accurate, but it was pretty close. I'd hate to see you slip up again.

 

[Louden Wilde]

In other words, you should be arguing for unisex rooms. But you don't want to do that, either because you don't believe in that or because you don't think it would work, so you hide behind a bunch of nonsense.

Remove all sex segregation, problem solved. Intellectually honest too.

Good point- the folks arguing that gender/self ID is more important than sex end up twisting themselves up pretty well.

 

[theprestige]

Good point- the folks arguing that gender/self ID is more important than sex end up twisting themselves up pretty well.

I've been saying for a while that trans-activism hinges on preserving sex segregation.

Take away gender stereotypes (thanks, feminists!) and the only practical application for trans-inclusion is being possessed of the one sex, but being accorded all the privileges and entitlements society provides for the other sex.

 

[ponderingturtle]

How do you tell it's a gay penis?

Thats what mandatory identification badges are for, you have to make sure everyone knows the status of your genitals and who you are sexually interested in at all times. Its only reasonable.

 

[Meadmaker]

Thats what mandatory identification badges are for, you have to make sure everyone knows the status of your genitals and who you are sexually interested in at all times. Its only reasonable.

Hmmm...checks thread....no mention of badges. Nothing like a real position. No obvious connection of any sort....

Perfect!

 

[ponderingturtle]

Hmmm...checks thread....no mention of badges. Nothing like a real position. No obvious connection of any sort....

Perfect!

How else you are supposed to know which bathroom someone is supposed to use? You can't depend on clocking everyone. It is a simple direct solution.

 

[Emily's Cat]

And intersex people of course are banned from any hospital room or locker room.

What do sexual development disorders have to do with anything in this thread?

 

[Emily's Cat]

To many here this is a true victory for females.

"When the man arrived at the hospital with severe abdominal pains, a nurse didn't consider it an emergency, noting that he was obese and had stopped taking blood pressure medicines. In reality, he was pregnant — a transgender man in labor that was about to end in a stillbirth."

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2019/05/16/pregnant-transgender-man-births-stillborn-baby-hospital-missed-labor-signs/3692201002/

Don't you ever get tired of manufacturing strawmen?

That's not at all a victory for females, it's a complete and utter failure of rationality and a demonstration of exactly WHY sex matters more than gender identity.