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Discussion: Transwomen are not women (Part 7)

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Ziggurat said:
I don't know what you require in order for a binary to be "perfect", but sex in humans is actually pretty god damn binary. Sexual development and sexual characteristics are decidedly non-binary, but that's not the same thing as sex.
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As I understand it, sex is comprised of two mutually exclusive biological development tracks. Within each track there are degrees of development along a development continuum, and near-infinite permutations of development of all the different primary and secondary characteristics of that track. But aside from some extremely rare and fairly dysfunctional mutations that are entirely outside the scope of transgenderism, you're only ever on one track or the other.
 
p0lka said:
the highlighted seem to be a denial of reality, haven't had a reply yet so it's still up in the air, delusions have not been ruled out yet.

defining sex is not a contentious issue, it has been clearly defined for ages, being male or female is a biological fact.

Gender is the variable, I don't know why people focus on it so much but if it tickles your fancy be whatever you want.
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I think we're still outside the question of gender--sticking with the point about defining sex:

There are biological facts that lead to the designation of sex. Chromosomes, internal anatomy, external anatomy, biochemistry (hormones), and gonads as I understand it. The dispute we're going over here is where to classify someone who has different indicators among those very real and empirical factors. So I don't think it can be treated as such an obvious matter. Is there one of these that trumps all the others?
 
Alt+F4 said:
You're making a lot of generalizations there. I'm a cis woman, a lesbian and my politics are far from conservative. With that said, I don't want to see a penis in a woman's locker room or in the hospital bed next to mine. I'm not worried about safety, I feel uncomfortable, I just don't want to see it and it makes me sad that my feelings are dismissed so easily.
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And of course if they don't want a gay there either that is also their right and not any kind of discrimination. You just send the gays to only the gay bathrooms and keep them away from normal people.
 
Emily's Cat said:
Gametes in mammals are.

If you disagree, I challenge you to provide proof of a functional third type of gamete, or of a functional in-between type of gamete.

Similarly, human chromosomes are binary: they are either X or they are Y. There is no Z chromosome in humans. There is not "Asterisk" chromosome that is in-between an X and a Y.

Blood RH factors are strictly binary. They are either RH+ or RH-. There is no RH0 blood factor that is in between, nor is there an RHi blood factor that is outside of the positive/negative scale.
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Sadly, We went over this just a couple pages back. I've thought that Earthborn has been sealioning for a while now, and this strengthens that idea.
 
gnome said:
I think we're still outside the question of gender--sticking with the point about defining sex:

There are biological facts that lead to the designation of sex. Chromosomes, internal anatomy, external anatomy, biochemistry (hormones), and gonads as I understand it. The dispute we're going over here is where to classify someone who has different indicators among those very real and empirical factors. So I don't think it can be treated as such an obvious matter. Is there one of these that trumps all the others?
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Yes- see this post
or this link
 
Louden Wilde said:
Sadly, We went over this just a couple pages back. I've thought that Earthborn has been sealioning for a while now, and this strengthens that idea.
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I think that a lot of the gender ideology falls somewhere in between Flat Earth and Intelligent Design, frequently swinging wildly between the two.

On the Flat Earth side is the argument that gender identity is innate, immutable, and the core element of a person, and that it either trumps sex or that sex is a social construct. Just straight up denial of reproductive biology and objective reality.

On the Intelligent Design side is the constant red herring of DSDs and a persistent conflation of sex with sexual characteristics and the fall back to "it's so complicated we really can't tell what sex is".

Note that this has nothing to do with gender dysphoria as a condition. That's certainly a real condition that some people suffer from. This has to do with the ideology that has been attached to gender identity.
 
Matthew Best said:
How do you tell it's a gay penis?
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Because it makes women uncomfortable, just like a transwoman's penis does. That's how we know the women are homophobic or transphobic. If it belonged to a straight cis guy, obviously there would be no problem.
 
Elaedith said:
If it belonged to a straight cis guy, obviously there would be no problem.
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No. I can only speak for myself but could care less if the exposed penis in the women's locker room question is gay or straight or even if it's attached to a man or a woman.
 
So in Scotland, an "expert" speaking for the Pro-GRA side, seeking to reform GRA to be based on self declaration, said that if there's a spike in murders of homosexuals as a result of GRA reform, that's no big deal, it can be fixed after the fact. Because Self-ID isn't about that, it's not about whether some homosexuals get murdered. Self-ID is about human rights.

Apparently gay lives aren't a human right, and if they get killed, Scotland can resurrect them?

And if you think I'm exaggerating, listen to the audio. It's cued up to the appropriate spot.
https://twitter.com/ChrisMcEleny/status/1439888354259111937?s=20
 
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Elaedith said:
Andy Lewis has several good entries on this topic on his quackometer blog.

On the Sex Deracination Gambit

On the Ontology and Epistemology of Sex

The Capture of Nature

On the existence of females

Tribal Scepticism
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That's a good blog. It put words to a lot of the elements of the postmodern gender ideology that bother me. In particular, the difference between the ontology and the epistemology involved. That's largely because those aren't terms I'm particularly familiar with, but the second article up there did a great job of tracing through that particular switcheroo.
 
Alt+F4 said:
No. I can only speak for myself but could care less if the exposed penis in the women's locker room question is gay or straight or even if it's attached to a man or a woman.
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And intersex people of course are banned from any hospital room or locker room.

Though of course you are totally comfortable with a bearded trans guy in there as you just can assume he does not have a penis and so ignore all men unless you actually see the penis. I mean they are required to use the women's locker room after all.
 
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