The supernatural

[heydarian saeed]

Quran 22.47 ,' A day in the sight of the lord is like a thousand years of your reckoning.'

This says nothing about relativity, and is another quote stolen from the bible.

Bible 2Peter 3.8 But beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is as with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Hello. Please pay attention to the interpretation of the verse: The story of the companions of the cave has very beautiful and strange points. People are in a certain place, time has passed for them in a different way. For people who have been outside this environment 309 lunar years and for people who have been inside the cave only one day has passed and such a thing scientifically considering the possibility of changing the gravity of that environment for special reasons and as a result change The passage of time is perfectly acceptable for those who have been inside the cave.
As discussed in General Relativity, light deflects and bends as it passes by a high gravitational field, meaning that it changes direction. But the very interesting point is that in the seventeenth verse of Surah Al-Kahf, it is beautifully stated that the direction of sunlight changes as it passes by the cave of the Companions of the Cave.
Translation of the verse: And when the sun rises, you will see it turning to the right of their cave, and when it sets, They are from that cave. This is one of the signs and wonders of God.
Note: "This is one of the signs and wonders of God." Which is expressed immediately after the expression of the change of direction of sunlight. And it is clear that the position (light) of the sun when passing by the cave, at that particular time (due to changes in gravity in the cave environment, or any other factor) had certain conditions. And in no way is the expression of the position of the sun to determine the position of the cave, because this is not a suitable way to determine the position of the cave, and on the other hand, sunlight in certain conditions does not cause any change for people inside the cave.
It should be noted that this high gravitational field in the cave, existed only in a fraction of a second, which is why it only affected the light beam, which has a very high speed. And the moment of application of this high gravitational force was at the time of sunrise and during a very small time (the moment of going to the future), and also after 309 years for other people, exactly on the evening of such a day, it was time for them to return to the cave. And the change in the conditions of the cave at sunset has changed the direction of the light.
In the seventeenth verse, another interesting point is mentioned. "They are caves in that vast space," but being in a high gravitational field causes elongation, and in a high gravitational field, matter is completely decomposed and part of that gravitational field, which is somehow referred to in this verse.
Note that the sleep of these people has lasted 309 years !! Please read more carefully the meaning and explanation of the verses I am writing to you.
This translation and explanation is by no means found in other scriptures. pay attention.

 

[Scorpion]

- It does not say that the cloth hangs in the sky. Or the sky is like cloth. This is a funny thing. pay attention. He says the sky is like a tightly woven and beautiful fabric. That is, it describes the shape of the sky as a tightly woven fabric.And NASA has seen this description of the Qur'an in the sky in the 21st century.

See my post 1151 which gives various translations of surah 51.7 none of which say the sky is a tightly woven fabric.

 

[Scorpion]

Hello. Please pay attention to the interpretation of the verse: The story of the companions of the cave has very beautiful and strange points. People are in a certain place, time has passed for them in a different way. For people who have been outside this environment 309 lunar years and for people who have been inside the cave only one day has passed and such a thing scientifically considering the possibility of changing the gravity of that environment for special reasons and as a result change The passage of time is perfectly acceptable for those who have been inside the cave.
As discussed in General Relativity, light deflects and bends as it passes by a high gravitational field, meaning that it changes direction. But the very interesting point is that in the seventeenth verse of Surah Al-Kahf, it is beautifully stated that the direction of sunlight changes as it passes by the cave of the Companions of the Cave.
Translation of the verse: And when the sun rises, you will see it turning to the right of their cave, and when it sets, They are from that cave. This is one of the signs and wonders of God.
Note: "This is one of the signs and wonders of God." Which is expressed immediately after the expression of the change of direction of sunlight. And it is clear that the position (light) of the sun when passing by the cave, at that particular time (due to changes in gravity in the cave environment, or any other factor) had certain conditions. And in no way is the expression of the position of the sun to determine the position of the cave, because this is not a suitable way to determine the position of the cave, and on the other hand, sunlight in certain conditions does not cause any change for people inside the cave.
It should be noted that this high gravitational field in the cave, existed only in a fraction of a second, which is why it only affected the light beam, which has a very high speed. And the moment of application of this high gravitational force was at the time of sunrise and during a very small time (the moment of going to the future), and also after 309 years for other people, exactly on the evening of such a day, it was time for them to return to the cave. And the change in the conditions of the cave at sunset has changed the direction of the light.
In the seventeenth verse, another interesting point is mentioned. "They are caves in that vast space," but being in a high gravitational field causes elongation, and in a high gravitational field, matter is completely decomposed and part of that gravitational field, which is somehow referred to in this verse.
Note that the sleep of these people has lasted 309 years !! Please read more carefully the meaning and explanation of the verses I am writing to you.
This translation and explanation is by no means found in other scriptures. pay attention.

I thought the cave story was stolen from Plato, but actually it was stolen from another source.


Seven Sleepers of Ephesus, heroes of a famous legend that, because it affirmed the resurrection of the dead, had a lasting popularity in all Christendom and in Islam during the Middle Ages. According to the story, during the persecution of Christians (250 CE) under the Roman emperor Decius, seven (eight in some versions) Christian soldiers were concealed near their native city of Ephesus in a cave to which the entry was later sealed. There, having protected themselves from being forced to do pagan sacrifices, they fell into a miraculous sleep. During the reign (408–450 CE) of the Eastern Roman emperor Theodosius II, the cave was reopened, and the Sleepers awoke. The emperor was moved by their miraculous presence and by their witness to their Christian doctrine of the body’s resurrection. Having explained the profound meaning of their experience, the Seven died, whereupon Theodosius ordered their remains to be richly enshrined, and he absolved all bishops who had been persecuted for believing in the Resurrection.
A pious romance of Christian apologetics, the legend is extant in several versions, including Greek, Syriac, Coptic, and Georgian. Western tradition calls the Seven Sleepers Maximian, Malchus, Marcian, John, Denis, Serapion, and Constantine. Eastern tradition names them Maximilian, Jamblichus, Martin, John, Dionysius, Antonius, and Constantine. A version of the story is recounted in the Qurʾān’s 18th surah, eponymously called the “Surah of the Cave” (Sūrat al-kahf).

 

[IanS]

Hello dear
- In the Qur'an, he has stated the existing reality. It is not a prediction. He has said what is. But in the seventh century, its people did not have knowledge. And they did not understand anything. And man has understood and discovered those Qur'anic facts in the twentieth and twenty-first century. Did you pay attention?
1 And - It does not say that the cloth hangs in the sky. Or the sky is like cloth. This is a funny thing. pay attention. He says the sky is like a tightly woven and beautiful fabric. That is, it describes the shape of the sky as a tightly woven fabric.
2 NASA has seen this description of the Qur'an in the sky in the 21st century. And he took a photo. Did you pay attention?

Re., "1" the "sky" is NOT like a "Fabric" though!

Please quote what your Koran actually says in that passage.

Re., "2" - NASA has not done anything with the "Sky"! ... astronomers have known what the "sky" looks like for thousands of years! ... and there is no "fabric" there!

Your Koran does not say anything about what we have discovered through modern science. Not a single word.

You are doing what Christians do with their bible, and claiming that some completely unrelated word or completely unrelated phrase, should actually be taken to mean something about what we have now discovered through science, even though your book does not actually say any such thing whatsoever ...

... frankly that is simply dishonest (because if you can read at all, then you really must know that it does not say such things).

For nuclear interactions that occur continuously in the sun. 1 The Qur'an describes for seventh-century human beings who did not understand these things. 2 Says the sun with a dazzling light and distinguishes it from other lights.! It says this in Sura 10, verse 5. Did you pay attention? - 3 Einstein's general relativity is stated in Sura 18/ 17. Einstein's special relativity is stated in Sura 22/ 47.
I have said it many times. Again, do not be content to understand the meaning of the verses of the Qur'an in the simple sense in the translations. Rather, refer to Arabic language teachers who are fluent in the Qur'an. I refer to these sources in the interpretation and meaning of Quranic verses.
Good luck

Re. 1 - why didn't your God simply explain to people in 600AD what a nuclear reaction was? You could do that in one sentence … why is there no mention of any such thing by the people who wrote the Koran?

Re.2 – you say the Koran describes the Sun as a “dazzling light and distinguishes it from other lights” … but anyone whoever saw the sun in 600AD could instantly see for themselves that it was a “dazzling light"! … nobody needed any god to tell them that! …. AND – everyone on the planet could see that the Sun looked different from any night-time stars … so again, everyone knew that 10,000 years before any Koran was ever written!

Re. 3 – please quote the the passage where the Koran explains Relativity … where are the actual words please.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

"This ancient text describes modern science" sounds impressive.

"This ancient text contains phrases which might be reinterpreted as vague poetic allusions to modern science" is more accurate but obviously unimpressive.


(It does remind me of the fuss a few years ago around a piece of very early cinema film, which appeared to show an elderly woman listening to an iPod, more than a hundred years before they were invented. I believe the explanation was that she was using an early model of battery powered hearing aid. The original audience would have recognised the device for what it was and what it meant (older woman character, a bit deaf, uses a hearing aid, might not be able to quite follow what's going on) while to an early-2000s audience it was obviously an anachronistic iPod.)

 

[Lothian]

No. You pay attention.

No! you pay attention. Note, Although I have now twice copied your demand for attention, you should note it is considered rude to demand attention.

The Qur'an refers to the science and reality of the universe.

No, it refers to an ancient understanding, that has been superseded.

And described. And it has motivated you and me to explore science.

Not me. I know more science than can be found in the Koran. Most 10 year olds know more science than in the Koran.

The Qur'an has not rejected science. But also confirmed. And admired. And it has motivated us to always seek science. I do not know how difficult it is to understand this ?! The Qur'an and science are together and are not separate.

Science has left the Koran far far behind. The Koran in useless and has no place in the science classroom. Make that no place in any classroom other than religious studies.

 

[IanS]

I have never been convinced that heydarian is posting here in a genuine way. His posts look to me as if he may well be a troll … in this case someone just posting with absurd and obviously untrue religious claims to see how long it will take for someone here to present him with an argument that he cannot simply wave away by saying “the Koran is God's word, so it must be all true” …

… really if anyone argues as heydarian is doing, by just insisting that the Koran is 100% factual truth and that it's words, Gods'/Allah's words, contain all possible knowledge and all fact about everything in the universe, providing we are clever enough to interpret them in the “right” way (as he says that he always does!), then I'm not sure it would ever be possible to present such a person with genuine evidence and clear argument sufficient to overcome that sort of absolutely fundamentalist belief in the certainty that you yourself must always be right because you are using the book that can never be wrong!

But of course the actual truth is that his book does not explain anything about modern science ... it's does not describe anything other than what was already known or widely believed at the time (and likewise for the bible). For heydarian to claim otherwise really does have to be blatant dishonesty, whether his posts are actually trolling or whether he really believes all that he says, because he is using the internet and he therefore must know perfectly well that science has given detailed and very precise descriptions of almost everything that Man has ever even thought about investigating, and those discoveries and explanations are all in 100% stark contradiction to the miraculous explanations in books like the Koran and the Bible … he does have a decent idea of what science says about all of this, and he must know that it's incompatible with belief in the miraculous tales from books like the Koran … but he is telling us the exact opposite of that … he's telling us that all the discoveries of science were already stated in the Koran by 600AD … so either way, sorry to say this, but that approach from heydarian is simply not honest.

 

[Pixel42]

I do not know how difficult it is to understand this ?!

The only one failing to understand here is you, heydarian. You fail to understand how utterly unconvincing your arguments are, and why we do not accept them. You fail to understand the counterarguments that are put to you. You fail to understand the scientific discoveries you are ridiculously trying to link to verses in the Qu'ran. About the only thing you seem to understand is how to twist words so that they appear to say what you want them to say.

 

[Scorpion]

Here are some translations of the Quran surah 10.5 as can be seen it says the sun is radiant and the moon is a light. This shows Muhammad had no knowledge that the moons light is reflected sunlight.


Quran 10.5 Khalifa,

He is the One who rendered the sun radiant, and the moon a light, and He designed its phases that you may learn to count the years and to calculate. GOD did not create all this, except for a specific purpose. He explains the revelations for people who know.

Quran 10.5 Pickthall

He it is Who appointed the sun a splendour and the moon a light, and measured for her stages, that ye might know the number of the years, and the reckoning. Allah created not (all) that save in truth. He detaileth the revelations for people who have knowledge.

Quran 10.5 Shakir,

He it is Who made the sun a shining brightness and the moon a light, and ordained for it mansions that you might know the computation of years and the reckoning. Allah did not create it but with truth; He makes the signs manifest for a people who

Quran 10.5 Sherali

HE it is WHO made the sun radiate a brilliant light and the moon reflect a lustre, and ordained for it proper stages, that you might know the count of years and the reckoning of time. ALLAH has not created this system but in accordance with the requirements of truth. HE details the signs for a people who possess knowledge

Quran 10.5 Yusuf Ali

It is He Who made the sun to be a shining glory and the moon to be a light (of beauty), and measured out stages for her; that ye might know the number of years and the count (of time). Nowise did God create this but in truth and righteousness. (Thus) doth He explain His Signs in detail, for those who understand.

 

[IanS]

Did you pay attention?
- It does not say that the cloth hangs in the sky. Or the sky is like cloth. This is a funny thing. pay attention. He says the sky is like a tightly woven and beautiful fabric. That is, it describes the shape of the sky as a tightly woven fabric.

Pay Attention! ... the "sky" is the blue or grey coloured region of the air with clouds that we can all see a short distance above the Earth. That does not look like a cloth or fabric at all to anyone!

What you are talking about, and what you say is called the "Sky" in the Koran, is actually "Space", i.e. the region of the universe far beyond the Earths cloudy skies.

When people in 600AD looked up at the dark night sky to see stars and planets, that is "Space", that is not an Earthly "Sky"! ...

... in 600 AD there was none of the vast light pollution from all the city lights that we see today, so the night skies were extremely dark and stars could all be seen much more clearly ... that included the very large wispy looking band across the entire "Night Sky" that is actually the Milky Way, i.e. the edge-on view through the spiral arms of our galaxy ... that did in 600AD, and still does today, look something like a wide mass of thin wispy cloud or "fabric" ... that is presumably what the Koran was actually referring too ... BUT -

- that is NOT a "fabric" structure in the Earths "sky" ... it's not a fabric connecting throughout the universe, or even connecting throughout our galaxy! ... it's merely a "line of sight effect" where we are looking through the most dense groups of stars in the spiral arms ... those stars are not joined together or connected in any way like "a fabric".

Pay Attention!! … your religious book does not tell you that the “fabric” is really not part of the Earths sky, nor any part of it's atmosphere, but instead it is our view of millions of unconnected distant stars looking through the spiral arm of our galaxy … why did your book and your God/Allah never say any of that? It would have been supremely easy to have said that in just a few words … but instead it talks mistakenly about a view “like a fabric in the sky” .. why did it not say it was part of “our galaxy”? … “why did it not say “it's a view through a spiral arm of our entire galaxy”? … why did it not say that our entire galaxy is only a minimally small part in all of the entire space of stars and galaxies that fill our universe? … why did it never say anything at all about any of that?

Anyone here could explain that structure of space and the Milky Way in less than 60 seconds. Why is there no mention of that in your holy book. Instead it mistakenly and ignorantly talks about something that is “like a fabric/structure in the sky”.

Pay Attention!! - When you try to tell people here that you are educating us all on how the Koran tells us all about the "fabric & structure" of the universe and how it described it all 1400 years before modern science, that is frankly an insult to everyone's intelligence (it would be an insult to the intelligence & education of a 10 year old!).


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milky_Way

 

[turingtest]

"This ancient text describes modern science" sounds impressive.

"This ancient text contains phrases which might be reinterpreted as vague poetic allusions to modern science" is more accurate but obviously unimpressive.

"Allusions to badly-understood modern science" would be even more accurate. The Koranic verse that's supposed to anticipate Relativity shows about the same second-grade understanding of that theory as "why are they still fish instead of human?" does of the actual theory of evolution.

(It does remind me of the fuss a few years ago around a piece of very early cinema film, which appeared to show an elderly woman listening to an iPod, more than a hundred years before they were invented. I believe the explanation was that she was using an early model of battery powered hearing aid. The original audience would have recognised the device for what it was and what it meant (older woman character, a bit deaf, uses a hearing aid, might not be able to quite follow what's going on) while to an early-2000s audience it was obviously an anachronistic iPod.)

I remember that- this lady, I think, at a premiere of a Chaplin film-


Though I remember the assertion, by the Irish film-maker who spotted it, George Clarke (contemporary ABC News article, though the video is no longer there), that it was a cell phone she was using. I found this bit sort of amusing-

"If you look carefully, she's talking on a thin, black device that is held to her ear. If you notice also that the knuckles are bent in the flat shape… of a phone. The phone is to the ear. It's not an ear trumpet. It is not an AM/FM radio, obviously because it's 1928," Clarke says in the video. "Technically, there's nothing that can explain [what] is in her hand… It's clear she's talking. She's on her own. She's talking into the device."

Right, it obviously couldn't have been an AM/FM radio (by which I assume he meant something like a transistor radio), because it was 1928, before those were invented, but could have been a cell-phone, even though 1928 was also before those were invented. Funny how a standard used to discard one possibility is itself quickly discarded to favor another.

Anyway, all this does go to show the danger in (and sometimes comical results of) interpreting what people were doing or understanding far in the past only by the light of what people do or understand now. Antonia Fraser has a quote (I think in her biography of Mary Queen of Scots) about the historian's need to understand that what people now see as in the past was once unseen in the future. That seems sort of applicable here, in that a perspective forced by faith results in a false view of its own history.

 

[Myriad]

It was a pity. I wanted to tell you the exact scientific facts about the existence of wormholes and black holes in the sky that are mentioned in the Qur'an. You know that right now in the Blue Project they are trying to go to the closest star to the solar system and the Alpha Centauri star by spaceship.
You know that this journey will take 6300 years. And there is a need for perhaps thousands of generations of humans to emerge on the ship !! Which is now almost impossible despite the current facilities. And all the effort and thought of scientists is to solve this issue. And the project is very exciting and interesting for the world.
Yes it is and it should be very valuable. Because the planet Earth is facing threats that will endanger the human race. So we have to think about traveling to a planet that is similar to Earth. Currently, this planet Alpha Centauri is our only option. You know that to spend 6300 years traveling in space !! The best option is to pass through wormholes and black holes. How to overcome this challenge ?! Answering and explaining these questions is extremely important in the Quran !! But unfortunately you do not want to believe.
This book is related to the origin of science and technology. If we accept and believe it, it will take us to those parallel worlds that are only possible through wormholes and black holes. The only way is to believe in this book. These scientific and technological facts I have already said are only in the Qur'an. It is not in any of the old books and holy books. You can check those books yourself but you will not find them. This book is not a copy of the Bible or Galen. And there is no copy of any book. We have in the Qur'an that a person with the same human physical body has traveled to all the heavens by the order of God with a special spaceship !!!
Unfortunately you do not want me to say. Or are you kidding. Or you throw stones. Or go back to 5000 years ago !!! And he told the story of Noah. Get out of ancient times. Come to the 21th century. Think of a spaceship to travel to Alpha Centauri. I like you.
The Qur'an does not say to use centrifugal force or plasma or water to build a special spaceship. It does not say to use genome-containing capsules to take the human race into space. No, he does not say that. Says that ... you can reach this technology. And take man himself into space! And stay healthy! And bend the space-time screen !! And open the wormhole valve and go through parallel worlds through it !!
It is discussed in at least 30 verses of the Qur'an. The interested and faithful seeker wants to understand and discover these things in the Qur'an.
If I say that your terrible madness is much greater, then I am silent. I see your sticks. I see your beatings. I see your rudeness and disrespect. I see your ridicule. No problem, I'm patient. Click and relax. And I'm sorry.
I like you. I am not Unattended. There is a God. I am All alone. And there is God. Hope to meet.

Are you talking about the Mi'raj? And 55:33?

 

[junkshop]

You know that right now in the Blue Project they are trying to go to the closest star to the solar system and the Alpha Centauri star by spaceship

Umm, no:

Project Blue is a small space telescope to be launched into low-Earth orbit.

Source: BoldlyGo Institute

ETA: I assume that this is the 'Blue Project' that you were referring to, as opposed to the Spanish contemporary art gallery, or PwC's emerging markets assessments. If I'm wrong please feel free to explain what you were referring to.

 

[malbui]

Apologies if I've missed someone else saying this in the nearly 1200 posts of proselytising and response to date, but it occurs to me that there would be one really neat way of demonstrating how much science is packed into the Quran.

All that would be needed is for someone to take a verse or line or whatever and explain how it describes some currently unknown piece of science. Then in a few years time after CERN or Caltech or Oxford or wherever makes some stunning announcement, we can all come back to this thread and admit that we had been too hasty.


ETA: a specific example could be showing us where the specifications for a stable room-temperature superconductor can be found. That would seriously impress me.

 

[junkshop]

I wouldn't hold your breath.

Besides, that's not how these biblical/quranic predictions work. They can only be found after the fact, by twisting and shoehorning the text into new meanings.

As a way of predicting the future it's pretty much useless.

And, of course, it's all ********.

 

[malbui]

I wouldn't hold your breath.

Besides, that's not how these biblical/quranic predictions work. They can only be found after the fact, by twisting and shoehorning the text into new meanings.

As a way of predicting the future it's pretty much useless.

And, of course, it's all ********.

Well, you know that and I know that and everybody else on this thread bar one knows that, but I’m trying to show that we’re not completely closed-minded here .

And it’s not even as though this Quranic retrofitting is even worthy of marks for creativity. At least the Nostradamus fans can sometimes show a way with words.

 

[IanS]

Apologies if I've missed someone else saying this in the nearly 1200 posts of proselytising and response to date, but it occurs to me that there would be one really neat way of demonstrating how much science is packed into the Quran.

All that would be needed is for someone to take a verse or line or whatever and explain how it describes some currently unknown piece of science. Then in a few years time after CERN or Caltech or Oxford or wherever makes some stunning announcement, we can all come back to this thread and admit that we had been too hasty.


ETA: a specific example could be showing us where the specifications for a stable room-temperature superconductor can be found. That would seriously impress me.

I think the world has already done that test. Because the only time any theist such as heydarian has declared that a line the Koran is really describing Black Holes, or Relativity, or anything scientific at all, is always long AFTER science has described each of those things!

So theists like heydarian know zero about what any such verse means, and they say nothing about it for 1400 years ... But then when science discovers something, they look for a verse that contains some obscure irrelevant nonsense and say "ah ha ... these words sound a bit like & must be describing Relativity, or the Big Bang, or atomic structure or ..." .... they only ever know about it AFTER science has already told them about it! So, IOW … they always fail that test!



Edit to add - see this for a bit of amusement ...

https://www.newstatesman.com/uncategorized/2008/08/quran-muslim-scientific

 

[junkshop]

Edit to add - see this for a bit of amusement ...

https://www.newstatesman.com/uncategorized/2008/08/quran-muslim-scientific

“Almost everything, from relativity, quantum mechanics, Big Bang theory, black holes and pulsars, genetics, embryology, modern geology, thermodynamics, even the laser and hydrogen fuel cells, have been ‘found’ in the Quran,” says Nidhal Guessoum

That list looks mighty familiar, almost as if....

 

[Susheel]

India's former Minister of Science and Technology made claims that the knowledge contained in the Vedas was much more advanced than the theories of Einstein and Hawking. The director of one of Inia's premier technology institutes makes the same claim.

My response...

 

[steenkh]

I find it interesting that the religious texts only contain broad generalisations of the most popular and often wrong concepts.

The religious presentation of biological evolution is flat out wrong and only presents ignorant criticism of the evolution.

That “1000 years is like a day for God” should have any relation to the theory of relativity is completely laughable.