Texas bans abortion.

[psionl0]

That's not emotionalizing anything. Those are facts. A <24 week gestation fetus is only partially formed, feeds off the host, and it cannot live outside the host body. That's a parasite.

A "parasite" brings no benefit to a host and if you think that there is nothing positive about a pregnancy (either now or in the future) then maybe pregnancy is a disease that must be cured no matter what.

 

[Stacyhs]

Just to put this out there, in some ways, I am arguably a horrible person. Neither the baby murder nor women having x level of control over their body arguments actually sways my opinion much on the topic.

Other factors factor into my position fairly strongly, though. For example -



In short, the effects on society are what sway me the most, with my opinion on the validity of underlying purpose of the pushers of each side factoring in to a lesser degree.

Yeah, but those are all rational and logical arguments and facts! Besides, since when is a woman's life more important than the children she was put on this earth to provide? After all, that's her primary raison d'être!

 

[The Great Zaganza]

You could say the same thing about a culture in a petri dish if you really wanted to stretch it. At some point you have to say "stop!"

The argument is about whether a woman has the right to deny a foetus the protection of her womb and not whether there is any moral obligation to preserve a sperm or ovum.

Oh, I totally agree that you have to draw the line somewhere. And Row v Wade did that, if somewhat arbitrarily.
But the key argument of the anti-abortion mob IS that you can't draw a line, and that the first pile of cells needs to be treated like a human.
I agree that your argument is the more meaningful one, but it's not the one the Texas Ban and others make.

 

[psionl0]

JIn short, the effects on society are what sway me the most, with my opinion on the validity of underlying purpose of the pushers of each side factoring in to a lesser degree.

Yes, all forms of prohibition are a negative that benefit only law enforcement.

If there is a moral dimension to be decided then I suspect it never will.

 

[psionl0]

I agree that your argument is the more meaningful one, but it's not the one the Texas Ban and others make.

They were making an argument? I thought they were just vertically thinking idiots who say "abortion=bad".

That said, their novel way of nullifying the bill of rights will probably win them a lot of kudos from the Hitleresque right and we may see more laws like this in other fields in the future.

 

[Hellbound]

They were making an argument? I thought they were just vertically thinking idiots who say "abortion=bad".

That said, their novel way of nullifying the bill of rights will probably win them a lot of kudos from the Hitleresque right and we may see more laws like this in other fields in the future.

I think what they didn't consider is that, if this flies, the left can take advantage of the loophole too.

 

[Stacyhs]

A "parasite" brings no benefit to a host and if you think that there is nothing positive about a pregnancy (either now or in the future) then maybe pregnancy is a disease that must be cured no matter what.

False. Some parasites are very beneficial to the host. For example, some protozoa protect monarch butterfly larvae from parasitic flies and some worms help alleviate IBS symptoms.

I do find it odd that you have inferred that I think "there is nothing positive about a pregnancy" and I'd suggest you are now the one emotionalizing things.
Having had a child...a wanted child...I know exactly what the positives about it are. I loved every single minute of being pregnant having had to wait eleven years for it. I also know that if I'd been raped or gotten pregnant with a child that had gross birth defects that would make it die at an early age or give it a lifetime of pain, I'd have aborted it. I'd be heartbroken but I'd have done it.

 

[Aridas]

I think what they didn't consider is that, if this flies, the left can take advantage of the loophole too.

I suspect that the planners may well have considered that. Even if the left has the ability, it'll (1) generally be unpopular to actually use that ability and (2) if they actually used it, there's probably an expectation among many of the strategists for the left that the loudness and shamelessness of the Far Right will capitalize on it for gain far, far better than anything the left would do, with the corporate media amplifying that significantly.

 

[Hellbound]

I suspect that the planners may well have considered that. Even if the left has the ability, it'll (1) generally be unpopular to actually use that ability and (2) if they actually used it, there's probably an expectation among many of the strategists for the left that the loudness and shamelessness of the Far Right will capitalize on it for gain far, far better than anything the left would do, with the corporate media amplifying that significantly.

True, the left...at least so far...hasn't exemplified the depth and breadth of hypocrisy needed to take advantage of these type of loopholes

 

[psionl0]

I do find it odd that you have inferred that I think "there is nothing positive about a pregnancy" and I'd suggest you are now the one emotionalizing things.

The word "parasite" has negative connotations associated with it and if you use the same word to describe a foetus then even if it is scientifically accurate, you are bringing the same negative connotations against the foetus.

Having had a child...a wanted child...I know exactly what the positives about it are. I loved every single minute of being pregnant having had to wait eleven years for it. I also know that if I'd been raped or gotten pregnant with a child that had gross birth defects that would make it die at an early age or give it a lifetime of pain, I'd have aborted it. I'd be heartbroken but I'd have done it.

These are valid arguments and bringing the word "parasite" into it doesn't enhance them in any way.

 

[Aridas]

The word "parasite" has negative connotations associated with it and if you use the same word to describe a foetus then even if it is scientifically accurate, you are bringing the same negative connotations against the foetus.


These are valid arguments and bringing the word "parasite" into it doesn't enhance them in any way.

For what it's worth, I've heard them called parasites half-jokingly by parents several times. There may be negative connotations, but that's not the whole story. Certainly, it's no worse in accuracy than calling the group of cells a baby or a child early in development and likely better.

 

[smartcooky]

The word "parasite" has negative connotations associated with it and if you use the same word to describe a foetus then even if it is scientifically accurate, you are bringing the same negative connotations against the foetus.


These are valid arguments and bringing the word "parasite" into it doesn't enhance them in any way.

You also are using a term that does not necessarily apply, and does not enhance your arguments.... "foetus".

The Texas Law bans abortions from the sixth week onward, but no foetus exists until the 11th week of pregnancy. Before that point, it is an embryo, a collection of cells with little form, no heart (therefore, no heartbeat), no lungs, no liver, no kidneys, no organs of any kind.

This timing is not an accident. It has been deliberately written to prevent a woman from having an abortion at a point before she is likely to be able to know she is even pregnant. Its is in effect a pre-emptive strike against the unknowingly pregnant woman.... by the time she is able to know, its too late.

 

[Warp12]

Or put another way, whether a woman has the right to expel an unwanted, partially formed parasite from her uterus.

 

[psionl0]

For what it's worth, I've heard them called parasites half-jokingly by parents several times. There may be negative connotations, but that's not the whole story. Certainly, it's no worse in accuracy than calling the group of cells a baby or a child early in development and likely better.

The definition of "human" is largely a technical one. Anti-abortionists tend to use the word so that they can bandy other words like "murder" around.

It must be an effective technique because a lot of "pro-choice" people spend a lot of energy denying that a zygote/embryo/foetus is human.

 

[Warp12]

That's not emotionalizing anything. Those are facts. A <24 week gestation fetus is only partially formed, feeds off the host, and it cannot live outside the host body. That's a parasite.

 

[catsmate]

Well, the real measure of victory is if there is less murders of babies. Forget the politics.

So what level of additional risk to a woman's life due to an unwanted pregnancy is acceptable before you consider termination acceptable? 25%? 50%? 100%? 200%? 400%? 800%?

 

[smartcooky]

Your sadface does not contravene the science!

https://www.reading.ac.uk/news-archive/press-releases/pr9938.html

"The placenta uses a cloaking device similar to that used by parasites to avoid detection by the mother's immune system. MRC funded scientists looking to develop a diagnostic test for pre-eclampsia, a major and potentially fatal cause of fetal and maternal illness, made the amazing discovery which could have far reaching implications."

"What we found next was most unusual. It appeared the placental NKB contained the molecule phosphocholine which is used by filarial nematodes, a type of parasitic worm to escape host immune systems! I have had two or three 'Eureka!' moments in my career. This one, at 63, I am happy to bow out on."

"The human foetus and placenta have a different genotype from the mother. The foetus has been described before as acting in a parasitic way: it avoids rejection by the mother and exerts considerable influence over her metabolism for its own benefit, in particular diverting blood and nutrients. Now it would appear the similarities go much further. Although the mode of attachment of the phosphocoline (PC) is different in the mammalian placenta, its presence is startling. "

​

 

[catsmate]

Right. You've never heard of stranger rape, incest, date rape, rohypnol, and birth control failure? Oh...bad, bad women! How DARE you not abide by the law!

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/7166961468fd2da73a.jpg[/qimg]

May I suggest you ignore (or Ignore) the misogynistic trolling?

 

[catsmate]

This is the Great Problem with the abortion issue: when does an egg/sperm combo become a "human being? Science can't tell us because it's based on empirical evidence and repeatable results. But no zygote, embryo, or fetus can tell us anything. But religion 'can' because it's based solely on faith, what some "holy book" and/or religious leaders decide is true. And they can't even agree which is evidence that they don't know jack crap more than anyone else.

That a 'soul' exists is not based on any empirical evidence. There is nothing to test or observe. It's 100% a matter of belief. Some think our laws should be based on these religious beliefs even though they are not based on anything but belief and others may/do not agree with those beliefs. That is the ultimate conceit. This is what I believe; therefore you must live by my beliefs rather than your own. After all, I'm right!

My personal opinion is that a fetus is not a baby until it has a fully functioning brain and is viable. Until then, it is just in the process of becoming a baby just as a seed eventually become a flower. But the difference between me and the so called pro-life people is that I recognize that is MY belief and not necessarily THEIRS. But, unlike them, I would never tell a woman that she HAS to have an abortion. But, damn, they sure feel they have the right to tell others to live by their beliefs.

As I posted previously this is a matter than xianity has debated extensively over the centuries and that different sects don't agree on. Ensoulment at conception is a relatively new doctrine.
But the again as the "soul" is fabricated religious nonsense it is really of no importance.

 

[catsmate]

A "parasite" brings no benefit to a host and if you think that there is nothing positive about a pregnancy (either now or in the future) then maybe pregnancy is a disease that must be cured no matter what.

Pregnancy is a significant risk factor for women.