Discussion: Transwomen are not women (Part 7)

[JoeMorgue]

The answer is that she should be able to use the women's changing rooms. But a) get some sort of risk assessment before gaining that right (which may not have been done here, perhaps), and b) for the establishment to make identification and apprehension as strong as reasonably possible (both as an up-front deterrent, and as a means of bringing any actual offenders to justice).

What's your answer?

My answer is... oh wait I'm sorry EmilyCat is already screaming about the risk of being raped.

My answer is I can't make everyone happy, give me a reason it should be you.

Less flippantly in an ideal world everything that doesn't literally require a penis or vagina would be gender neutral to the point that "transgender" would be a totally meaningless concept. It would be like like going around "self identifying" as a different blood type, the concept wouldn't even make sense.

Realistically on a practical level as things are now, bathrooms and things that are on that general level of privacy by preferred gender, changing rooms and things on that general level of privacy by biological sex. (Those are both VERY general rules of thumb, not any sort of hard and fast decrees from the almighty.) I still (honestly, truly, and with zero snark) haven't made my mind up about sports and sorta gravitate toward "whatever the fans want to watch" but again as I stated that is still a very open question for me.

No it's not perfect, not it doesn't make everyone happy, no it's not a permanent solution, yes there's still a crapton of special one exceptions I haven't accounted for, but that's the gist of it.

 

[Earthborn]

The chromosomal test isn't necessary. The primary and secondary sexual characteristics are already visible.

... though not always on display, and subject to alteration.

I gotta figure that number must be pretty close to zero.

Here is a time it happened. Here's another. And another.

Hows far away from 0 do you want it to go? r/AccidentalAlly

Is that... is that even a thing?

Yes, that is actually a thing. It is not really all that uncommon. There are plenty of people who, like theprestige, think that it is always obvious from someone's looks what biological sex they are born with, and when learning that someone they perceive as a woman is trans, immediately assume that must mean they want to be a man. The opposite is also common.

It seems more logical that a transphobe would tell a transwoman "you'll never be a woman!" than "you'll never be a man!"

It would be logical, if they were any good at guessing a person's sex at birth, but they're not. Which is the point.

 

[Emily's Cat]

difficult question,
I don't think gender(being a variable) should override sex(being a constant) if they are in opposition to each other.
That's my simple off the cuff answer, I would have to think about it more to get to the truth of it though.

Thank you. Feel free to add more thoughts as you consider it.

 

[Louden Wilde]

Nobody (unless maybe Boudicaa if she sticks her head back in the conversation) is going to argue (yet, like I said give it a few years) that preferring a sexual partner to have a specific genital structure makes you a bigot. Nobody is, yet, ready to plant their flag in "You have to like innies and outies the same" territory.

Unfortunately, there are plenty of folks making this argument - especially male "lesbians" who think same-sex attracted women (i.e. adult females) should have sex with them - e.g. check out this site. There have also been a number of article about the large number of obvious males turning up on lesbian dating apps.

There's definitely a push to make it 'same-gender' attraction and claim that same-sex attraction is a fetish.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Unfortunately, there are plenty of folks making this argument - especially male "lesbians" who think same-sex attracted women (i.e. adult females) should have sex with them - e.g. check out this site. There have also been a number of article about the large number of obvious males turning up on lesbian dating apps.

There's definitely a push to make it 'same-gender' attraction and claim that same-sex attraction is a fetish.

So we're back to nutpicking again.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Unfortunately, there are plenty of folks making this argument - especially male "lesbians" who think same-sex attracted women (i.e. adult females) should have sex with them - e.g. check out this site. There have also been a number of article about the large number of obvious males turning up on lesbian dating apps.

There's definitely a push to make it 'same-gender' attraction and claim that same-sex attraction is a fetish.

The whole "Hardy har I'm a lesbian trapped in a man's body" thing is pathetic and I make no excuses for it.

 

[Emily's Cat]

You're acting like this is a competition or something, it's not. You're taking both sides of a convo and getting annoyed by my imagined answers.

I will take a moment and apologize on behalf of the regular posters in this thread - on both sides of this discussion.

It's been a long and contentious thread, and to be fair, we've seen a lot of people come in with a "just asking" or "neutral" entry point, and then quickly fall down the hole into name-calling and labeling. So I think all of us - on both sides - are prickly.

That said, I might spend more time outside of this forum discussing this issue than some others, and I'm aware that a great many people have never really given it any thought beyond the assumption that we should treat people the way they want to be treated, and that people shouldn't be discriminated against or harmed due to their presentation. It's a shared starting point, and one I share as well.

But it gets a lot more complicated when you step beyond the very high level agreement of compassion and care. There are genuine conflicts involved, there are genuine risks.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Perhaps the solution to prevent further Wi Spa incidents is to designate the former "women only" area to "no penis" area. This way people can adopt whatever label/gender/designation they want and those who do not wish to see a penis can avoid it.

Works for me. Alternatively, we could also just make it the "female" area.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Works for me.

Again we can't get that past the "OMG so we're going to have to setup genital checkers!" argument.

I don't disagree with it per se, just that as anything beyond a thought experiment it's dead on arrival.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

The whole "Hardy har I'm a lesbian trapped in a man's body" thing is pathetic and I make no excuses for it.

IIRC notorious troll Graham Linehan was the one trying to make a stink about trans women using a lesbian dating app.

Turns out the somewhat niche app he was trolling was one that was explicitly accepting of trans and other queer women. I'm not sure what point is supposed to be made by marching into some self-selecting niche dating app and getting outraged that it is inclusive of exactly who they say they want to include.

This is like being shocked you walk into a gay bar and being hit on by a gay guy.

https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2021/02/21/graham-linehan-women-her-dating-app-trans-transphobia-backlash/

The dating app did not specifically name Linehan in its response, but tweeted: “Let’s make this clear: HER is an app for ALL WOMEN and queer folx. It is not our, nor anyone else’s place to question or invalidate another’s identity. We are here for ALL WOMEN, including the trans community.”

Be honest, had you ever heard of the "Her" dating app before this? I hadn't. Seeking out trans people in niche, trans friendly dating apps for the sole purpose of being outraged is deranged behavior.

 

[JoeMorgue]

This is like being shocked you walk into a gay bar and being hit on by a gay guy.

Yeah the difference is gay guys are different from straight guys and they admit it.

Transwomen are not different from women in anyway shape or form and you're a horrible person if you even entertain the idea that they might be.

You can't want inclusive spaces when your entire argument is you are not a special category.

This **** works both ways. If you're a woman and demand to be every where that woman are at well guess what, you're a woman and women will be anywhere you are at as well.

You can't demand a "niche" dating app free from everyone, but invite yourself into everyone space's because you identify as them.

Transgenderism can be this or it can be that, it can't be a semi-permeable membrane in a constant state of quantum flux.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Yeah the difference is gay guys are different from straight guys.

Transwomen are not different from women in anyway shape or form and you're a horrible person if you even entertain the idea that they might be.

You can't want inclusive spaces when your entire argument is you are not a special category.

This **** works both ways. If you're a woman and demand to be everyone where woman are at well guess what, you're a woman and women will be anywhere you are at as well.

Nobody is demanding access to everywhere, just basic non-discrimination in public accommodations.

 

[Emily's Cat]

The study is about whether people would date people whose primary and secondary sexual characteristics are not in perfect alignment with each other.

You don't think it is surprising that gay males are attracted to people who don't look like males, and lesbians are attraced to people who do?

50% of trans-inclusive straight men would rather enter a homosexual relationship with a transman (who wouldn't want that relationship unless they are accepted as being a man) rather than a straight relationship with someone who looks like a woman, and you don't think that is a bit odd? My guess is that a lot of the respondents didn't quite understand the question. You'd be surprised how many people think transmen are m2f and transwomen are f2m.

Back that train up a moment, please. If the transman has a VAGINA, it wouldn't be a homosexual relationship. And if the person that looks like a woman has a PENIS, it's not a straight relationship. That's the entire point here, and why the researchers are, in my opinion, idiots.

Sexual orientation is not about clothing and presentation. It's about SEX. People who like dicks like dicks, not vaginas. The overwhelming majority of them like dicks on people who look like they should have dicks. A small number of people who like dicks are willing to date people who don't look like they should have dicks, provided that they actually do have a dick.

The researchers were *surprised* that gay men were a lot less willing to date transmen (people who look like they should have dicks but actually have vaginas) and somewhat more willing to date transwomen (people who like like they should have a vagina, but actually have a dick).

The researchers are dumb, in my opinion, because they made the asinine assumption that sexual orientation has nothing to do with sex... and they were surprised to learn that sexual orientation actually does have to do with sex. Seems pretty obvious to me... after all, it's not called "gender identity orientation".

 

[JoeMorgue]

Nobody is demanding access to everywhere, just basic non-discrimination in public accommodations.

What female spaces can transwomen not go into, under your standard?

If you can't name any it's a distinction without difference.

 

[Earthborn]

Keep in mind how this particular subthread got started. EC posted a scientific paper where the author's expressed surprise that someone's genitals actually mattered in romantic relationships.

I don't think the authors asked about genitals, but if you happen to know more because you happen to have access to the study behind its paywall, can I have a peek?

 

[TurkeysGhost]

What female spaces can transwomen not go into, under your standard?

If you can't name any it's a distinction without difference.

I'm not sure what you mean. The limitations of the civil rights act are pretty clear what counts as public accommodations and what isn't.

The TERF book club doesn't have to let any trans women in. Nobody is forced to date or have sex with anyone they don't like. The possibilities of private associations are only limited by your imagination.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Back that train up a moment, please. If the transman has a VAGINA, it wouldn't be a homosexual relationship. And if the person that looks like a woman has a PENIS, it's not a straight relationship. That's the entire point here, and why the researchers are, in my opinion, idiots.

Sexual orientation is not about clothing and presentation. It's about SEX. People who like dicks like dicks, not vaginas. The overwhelming majority of them like dicks on people who look like they should have dicks. A small number of people who like dicks are willing to date people who don't look like they should have dicks, provided that they actually do have a dick.

The researchers were *surprised* that gay men were a lot less willing to date transmen (people who look like they should have dicks but actually have vaginas) and somewhat more willing to date transwomen (people who like like they should have a vagina, but actually have a dick).

The researchers are dumb, in my opinion, because they made the asinine assumption that sexual orientation has nothing to do with sex... and they were surprised to learn that sexual orientation actually does have to do with sex. Seems pretty obvious to me... after all, it's not called "gender identity orientation".

PEOPLE LIKE GENITALS. Of all the things that shouldn't need a study.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

PEOPLE LIKE GENITALS. Of all the things that shouldn't need a study.

You are aware there are people who have less binary preferences in this regard, even outside the scope of trans identity.

 

[JoeMorgue]

I'm not sure what you mean. The limitations of the civil rights act are pretty clear what counts as public accommodations and what isn't.

I asked a simple question. You said transwomen aren't demanding to be let in all female only spaces, no siree.

I asked you name one exception.

The TERF book club doesn't have to let any trans women in. Nobody is forced to date or have sex with anyone they don't like. The possibilities of private associations are only limited by your imagination.

Well we're back to the problem that for all your simping for them, apparently you're afraid when the revolution comes they'll forget that you were always one of the good ones, what you claim Transpeople want and what Transpeople actually seem to want ain't ever exactly been similar.

The one transperson that's been active in this thread called you a Transphobe same as me because you didn't accept she had a biological female penis. We're both sleeping on the same couch so I don't get where your moral high ground is coming from.

 

[JoeMorgue]

You are aware there are people who have less binary preferences in this regard, even outside the scope of trans identity.

Go outside. I know on the internet every 3rd person is a transgender asexual who's otherkin persona is a genderfluid who's into S&M but in real life it's waaaaay more meat and potatoes.

The real world is not playing the "How complicated can I be" game like Twitter is.

Most peoples sex/gender/gentilia preferences don't need a flowchart.