Discussion: Transwomen are not women (Part 7)

[p0lka]

When a woman wears a pink dress, you should comment on how cute she looks.

When a man wears a pink dress, you should gasp and have your monocle drop into your earl gray.

When a transwoman wears a pink dress, you should comment on how cute she looks.

Gah, it's so easy. Peasants.

you missed a permutation.

 

[theprestige]

male and female are physical facts, you can't identify as them as they are not variables.
Man/woman/other though? they are gender labels and seem to be variables.

If X wants to be treated as a man and Y wants to be treated as a woman then I'm happy to oblige.


yeah, that's what correct means in this context.


I said it's a variable, treat people how they want to be treated.

Aside from pronouns, which are arbitrary, how do you believe a woman wants to be treated?

 

[d4m10n]

So you treat men and women differently?

I'd've assumed everyone (other than a/bisexuals) has treated men and women differently, at least some of the time.

 

[p0lka]

So you treat men and women differently?

*Cue massive backpedal that no that's totally different...*

I treat everyone differently, according to how they would like to be treated.

 

[JoeMorgue]

And just like that, we're right back where we started.

"Okay, so a biological male who identifies as a man is different from a biological male who identifies as a woman."
"Correct."
"So there have to be meaningful non-biological differences between males and females."
"No, they aren't."
"So there's a variable that exists between biological males who identify as women and biological males who identify as females, but no variable that exists between men and women?"
"Yes."
*Slight stroke*

 

[JoeMorgue]

I treat everyone differently, according to how they would like to be treated.

Copout. Answer the question actually asked.

You treat women and men differently because they are women and men, because there is a variable there. If there is no variable there "transgender" is totally meaningless.

Let's see how much virtual breathe you waste trying to make a distinction without difference before falling back on "Shut you're a transphobe."

 

[theprestige]

I treat everyone differently, according to how they would like to be treated.

Give us an example of your approach in practice. Give us an example of a friend or acquaintance of your s, who told you what being treated like a woman meant to them, and how you treated them that way.

 

[p0lka]

I get the place you're coming from, p0lka. And it's a very nice and compassionate place.

The challenge is that self-identification, adopting a gender label based on feelings alone, results in a conflict. Specifically, gender identity frequently conflicts with sex class. At the end of the day, a male who identifies as a woman is not actually female. And vice versa.

Which leads to situations where one or the other of those characteristics needs to take precedence.

So let's start with my current top issue: prisons.

Prisons have long been sex-segregated. They haven't been separated on the basis of gender label or gender identity, but on objective sex. Over the past few years, that has changed, and several US states, along with Canada, and parts of the UK & Ireland, have decided that prisoners should be housed according to their gender identity, rather than their sex. I, along with nearly all female inmates, think this is a monumentally bad idea that puts female prisoners at risk.

What are your thoughts on how gender identity should be handled in prisons?

difficult question,
I don't think gender(being a variable) should override sex(being a constant) if they are in opposition to each other.
That's my simple off the cuff answer, I would have to think about it more to get to the truth of it though.

 

[p0lka]

Copout. Answer the question actually asked.

You treat women and men differently because they are women and men, because there is a variable there. If there is no variable there "transgender" is totally meaningless.

Let's see how much virtual breathe you waste trying to make a distinction without difference before falling back on "Shut you're a transphobe."

You're acting like this is a competition or something, it's not. You're taking both sides of a convo and getting annoyed by my imagined answers.

 

[theprestige]

You're acting like this is a competition or something, it's not. You're taking both sides of a convo and getting annoyed by my imagined answers.

That's fair. Your actual answers are already annoying enough,though.

 

[p0lka]

Give us an example of your approach in practice. Give us an example of a friend or acquaintance of your s, who told you what being treated like a woman meant to them, and how you treated them that way.

I don't quite understand why you are focusing on 'treated like a woman', but I have relatives that prefer he/him whilst being female, others that prefer she/her whilst being male, and others that prefer they/they whilst being whatever.

edit:

That's fair. Your actual answers are already annoying enough,though.

Why are my answers annoying?

 

[Meadmaker]

I disagree,
from what I can work out, woman is a gender label so rpg it, whatever.
Human? Won't anyone think about the A.I's?

Female is a physical description, I don't think that can rpg'ed at all.

A female is a female, a male is a male, everything else seems to be a variable.

That's the language I've been using for a while. I realized, at some point, that the arguments about the meaning of "woman" were arguments about the meaning of words, and words can mean whatever you want.

However, reality doesn't change, so, as part of the post where I said I would use those terms (i.e. woman is a gender and female is a sex) I said that we should take down all the locker room signs that said "women", and replace them with signs that said "female", and we should have "female" sports divisions instead of girls' sports divisions.

I'm pretty sure that still made me a TERF.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

I get the place you're coming from, p0lka. And it's a very nice and compassionate place.

The challenge is that self-identification, adopting a gender label based on feelings alone, results in a conflict. Specifically, gender identity frequently conflicts with sex class. At the end of the day, a male who identifies as a woman is not actually female. And vice versa.

Which leads to situations where one or the other of those characteristics needs to take precedence.

So let's start with my current top issue: prisons.

Prisons have long been sex-segregated. They haven't been separated on the basis of gender label or gender identity, but on objective sex. Over the past few years, that has changed, and several US states, along with Canada, and parts of the UK & Ireland, have decided that prisoners should be housed according to their gender identity, rather than their sex. I, along with nearly all female inmates, think this is a monumentally bad idea that puts female prisoners at risk.

What are your thoughts on how gender identity should be handled in prisons?

I trust you have a citation for that.

 

[Alt+F4]

What should happen when an adult human male, with fully intact male genitalia, with not hormone treatment at all, adopts the gender label of "woman"?

Perhaps the solution to prevent further Wi Spa incidents is to designate the former "women only" area to "no penis" area. This way people can adopt whatever label/gender/designation they want and those who do not wish to see a penis can avoid it.

 

[Ziggurat]

I treat everyone differently,

Perhaps. But that's frequently not worthwhile.

according to how they would like to be treated.

Well, no. Obviously you don't. Oh, I'm sure you frequently extend certain courtesies to people which they desire, but only within bounds that you have set. And when they want to be treated outside the bounds that you set, no, you absolutely won't treat them the way that they want to be treated. And that is right and proper, to do otherwise is simply to invite being exploited and victimized yourself. The only question is, where do you set the limits of what you're willing to accommodate? Because I guarantee that you have limits somewhere.

 

[Earthborn]

So... If Eddie Izzard and Alex Drummond were to commit crimes that land them in jail... would you argue that they be placed in the male prison or the female prison? Both have declared themselves to be transwomen, both identify as women, neither have had (nor plan to have) any hormone therapy, neither have had (nor plan to have) any surgical alterations. Yet neither is closeted.

Eddie Izzard plans to have sex reassignment surgery. On hormone use, the article states:

However, when asked whether she is taking the hormone pills, she replied that she is happy about her transition but would like to keep certain things of her life private.

I think it is likely that she does take/has taken hormones.

Do they count as "women" to you? Do they gain access to female spaces, honors, shelters, and prisons as a right?

I think it is pretty obvious by now what I think of segregation, especially when it is used to paper over more fundamental problems. It shouldn't matter whether a person "counts as a woman". Access should be regulated based on what is practical.

 

[Earthborn]

The vast majority of people on the planet are attracted to people whose primary and secondary sexual characteristics are in alignment with each other.

The study is about whether people would date people whose primary and secondary sexual characteristics are not in perfect alignment with each other.

This is what happens when someone somewhere tries to redefine sexual orientation to be "gender identity orientation" instead. Then you end up with researchers being surprised that gay males are attracted to other males, regardless of their presentation, and that gay females are attracted to other females.

You don't think it is surprising that gay males are attracted to people who don't look like males, and lesbians are attraced to people who do?

50% of trans-inclusive straight men would rather enter a homosexual relationship with a transman (who wouldn't want that relationship unless they are accepted as being a man) rather than a straight relationship with someone who looks like a woman, and you don't think that is a bit odd? My guess is that a lot of the respondents didn't quite understand the question. You'd be surprised how many people think transmen are m2f and transwomen are f2m.

 

[Meadmaker]

50% of trans-inclusive straight men would rather enter a homosexual relationship with a transman...

That isn't a homosexual relationship. I guess you could call it a homogendered relationship.

 

[theprestige]

You don't think it is surprising that gay males are attracted to people who don't look like males, and lesbians are attraced to people who do?

You're trying too hard to ignore the truth. The truth is that males still look like males, and females still look like females. Primary and secondary sex indicators are not magically transformed by fiat self-ID, or by going about in drag. You know this. Everyone knows this. Pretending otherwise just makes you look insane.

 

[Earthborn]

Heterosexuals don't have to apologize to anyone for their sexual turn-ons and turn-offs. Homosexuals don't have to justify their sexual attractions to any damn person. Transsexuals don't have to apologize. Why should cissexuals have to?

Nobody has to apologise for anything. For everybody it is true; either you like someone, or you don't.

But if someone insists that they need to subject someone to a chromosomal test before they can decide whether or not they like them, I think that is a bit weird. No kinkshaming.