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New generation batteries - just add sugar

Orphia Nay

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Orphia Nay
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"Australian researchers say they've opened the path to a new generation of batteries that could allow an electric vehicle to drive from Melbourne to Sydney on a single charge.

"And the crucial ingredient was a spoonful of sugar."

"a team from Monash University say they've found a way of making lithium-sulfur batteries that are robust enough to be recharged 1,000 times."

https://www.abc.net.au/news/science...lfur-sugar-future-electric-vehicles/100457492
 
Orphia Nay said:
"Australian researchers say they've opened the path to a new generation of batteries that could allow an electric vehicle to drive from Melbourne to Sydney on a single charge.

"And the crucial ingredient was a spoonful of sugar."

"a team from Monash University say they've found a way of making lithium-sulfur batteries that are robust enough to be recharged 1,000 times."

https://www.abc.net.au/news/science...lfur-sugar-future-electric-vehicles/100457492
Click to expand...

"Professor Majumder argued that cheaper lithium-sulfur batteries might be able to compete with lithium-ion ones, even if they had to be replaced more often."

This is a pretty important point. If they are cheap enough, performance doesn't need to match Li-ion batteries, it only needs to be good enough. We shall see. But it would be good to move away from depending on rare earth metals, especially given China's dominance in that market.
 
Using sugar to power batteries just seems like the Matrix Problem of Thermodynamics. The energy used to grow, harvest, transport, and store the sugar could probably be used much more efficiently to just charge the batteries.

Unless this is a major supply-outstrips-demand issue, and storing the surplus energy in sugar is more efficient than storing it in the electrical grid or in the batteries themselves.
 
theprestige said:
Using sugar to power batteries just seems like the Matrix Problem of Thermodynamics. The energy used to grow, harvest, transport, and store the sugar could probably be used much more efficiently to just charge the batteries.

Unless this is a major supply-outstrips-demand issue, and storing the surplus energy in sugar is more efficient than storing it in the electrical grid or in the batteries themselves.
Click to expand...

Guide for posting:
1. Read article
2. Comment on it.

I think you skipped step 1. :)
 
Guybrush Threepwood said:
Guide for posting:
1. Read article
2. Comment on it.

I think you skipped step 1. : )
Click to expand...
Guilty as charged. I have a general policy of not digging any deeper into the article than the OP does. If the OP thinks a catchphrase is a better summary than an actual explanation of the core claim, I'm more than happy to proceed on that basis. YMMV.
 
Orphia Nay said:
"Australian researchers say they've opened the path to a new generation of batteries that could allow an electric vehicle to drive from Melbourne to Sydney on a single charge.

"And the crucial ingredient was a spoonful of sugar."

"a team from Monash University say they've found a way of making lithium-sulfur batteries that are robust enough to be recharged 1,000 times."

https://www.abc.net.au/news/science...lfur-sugar-future-electric-vehicles/100457492
Click to expand...

Sweet! :thumbsup:
 
theprestige said:
Guilty as charged. I have a general policy of not digging any deeper into the article than the OP does. If the OP thinks a catchphrase is a better summary than an actual explanation of the core claim, I'm more than happy to proceed on that basis. YMMV.
Click to expand...
Did you envision this was Mr. Fusion adjacent, extracting 30 or 40 kWh from 50 grams of sugar?

"Sweet" indeed. [emoji1]
 
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Jim_MDP said:
Did you envision this was Mr. Fusion adjacent, extracting 30 or 40 kWh from 50 grams of sugar?

"Sweet" indeed. [ emoji1 ]
Click to expand...

I envisioned it was either -

- clickbait crap

or -

- some kind of reasonable claim tarted up to look like clickbait crap.

Turns out to be the latter, and I regret nothing.
 
My first thought was "Fuel Cell?"
Next, add some carbs to a Li battery would do something chemically/calatyticaly to make a better battery.

BUT, just today while searching into my local interest, GM has a plan to extract Lithium from the geo-hydo source under the Salton Sea. Great gobs of it.

And I suspect that Lithium car batteries, like lead-acid, are 100% recyclable? The lithium just needs to be re-refined, cheaper than digging it out of the ground and refining it the first time.
 
Cheaper batteries that have a better weight to energy ratio has huge applications. For example, you could have electric-powered aircraft.
 
theprestige said:
I envisioned it was either -



- clickbait crap



or -



- some kind of reasonable claim tarted up to look like clickbait crap.



Turns out to be the latter, and I regret nothing.
Click to expand...
This is, oddly, the third "new and amazing" batt tech in development that I've come across just today. I'm an RVer so they're of more than just passing interest or curiosity.

Just wish a couple would pan out... in my lifetime. [emoji1]

Hell... one or more will need to before we get in shouting distance of either of Elon's wet dreams of an EV semi or full batt airliner (he's such a grifter as often as not).
I'd love to see a decent, full sized EV RV someday, but three or four kilowatt hours on the cheap would get me excited for now. ;)

(It's about a buck (US) per watt hour now for consumer pre-built (diy knocks ~40% off)... that needs to come down quite a bit for wide adoption)
 
casebro said:
My first thought was "Fuel Cell?"
Next, add some carbs to a Li battery would do something chemically/calatyticaly to make a better battery.

BUT, just today while searching into my local interest, GM has a plan to extract Lithium from the geo-hydo source under the Salton Sea. Great gobs of it.

And I suspect that Lithium car batteries, like lead-acid, are 100% recyclable? The lithium just needs to be re-refined, cheaper than digging it out of the ground and refining it the first time.
Click to expand...

Hadn't heard about Salton/SoCal, but 6-8 weeks ago I scanned past something about a major find in the UK. Haven't seen anything further though.
 
Ziggurat said:
"Professor Majumder argued that cheaper lithium-sulfur batteries might be able to compete with lithium-ion ones, even if they had to be replaced more often."

This is a pretty important point. If they are cheap enough, performance doesn't need to match Li-ion batteries, it only needs to be good enough.
Click to expand...
Perhaps. But there's a lot more to that equation that just the cost of the cells.

They claim to have increased the life to 1,000 cycles, but Li-ion can do 10 times that. Would you be happy with having to replace your EV battery ten times more often? How much of the cost of a battery is the cell contents, and how much is other stuff (which won't be any cheaper)? For sustainability the battery components need to be recycled. If this has to be done 10 times more often the cost will probably be much higher.

An ideal battery would not have to be replaced more often, but would last the lifetime of the vehicle - reducing manufacturing costs because it doesn't have be designed for easy replacement, and reducing maintenance costs. Many vehicles are warranted for 5 years or more today, and EV batteries are typically warranted for 8 years. With Li-S this warranty would have to exclude the battery - which is not an easy sell to the customer (though dealers may like the idea of selling a cheaper vehicle which they make more money from in maintenance charges).

Using sugar to stabilize the cathode may solve one problem, but there are many other problems with Li-S that aren't being talked about, such as power density and the practicality of scaling up to large pouch cells. Li-S may have greater energy density, but the voltage is much lower so the minimum number of series cells required to get an efficient battery voltage (300V+) is much higher, requiring extra wiring and more balancing circuits to equalize the cell voltages.

Until a commercial battery is in production we won't know whether the real lifetime costs will be sufficiently lower to justify the shorter lifespan. I don't expect an answer for at least 5-10 years, by which time Li-ion costs may also have become more competitive.
 
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Not sure where you're getting a factory pledge of 10,000 cycles.
AFAIK... cycle life estimates, to 80% capacity, currently run like this... Li-Ion (ex. 18650 etc) 500 -1000 cycles; Li-Po 1000-1500; and our new badazz LiFePo4 (Lithium Iron) 3000-5000.
Of course then many get sold off as 80% used for more usage before recycling. Same here I'd presume.

But you're right the key in all is energy density, it's the only way to eventually get those semis and passenger planes.
But they should be stated as watts per gram, or kilowatts per kilogram. The cell voltage is less relevant (volume on the other hand is not... might not have space for a current crop of low voltage cell packs).
Anyway... if Li-S pans out to any degree I'd expect them to get that cycle life up quite a bit, or settle for specialized applications and not more general consumer use. Same with the Li- liquid metal developments, which honestly might be more promising (it reduces/eliminates dendritic lithium formation... much safer and much longer lifespan).

Sorry... drinking and babbling. What was the question? :)


Eta... I think we could bump Li Ion and LiPo life in consumer devices if the mfgs would let us tune the charge cycles. Stay between ~10 and ~85% SOC. Don't think it would double, half again and a bit?
 
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