[ED] Discussion: Trans Women Are not Women (Part 6)

[theprestige]

And most importantly, what rights for transgender identified people are under discussion?

When you think about it in the context of fiat self-ID, it's not even really a question of transgender rights. LJ and others are actually asserting a universal human right to use the gender-segregated facilities of their choice. Literally the only criteria for using a women's locker room, man or woman, male or female, is "because I want to". That's the only right I can infer from LJ's position. If there's specific rights he'd like to make explicit, he is as always, welcome to do so at any time.

Meanwhile, ST's argument seems to be that where some of us see a basis for sex segregation, sex-based segregation is some combination of -
- really just gender-based segregation
- irrelevant
- not real for the purposes of this discussion

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Heightened risk from violence of all kinds. Are you denying that the good sex-based reasons for segregating men's and women's sports do not apply to men's and women's prisons?

I think the specific circumstances relating to sports are extremely complicated and a strict sex-based segregation is not a good solution, though I'm not sure there is an immediately evident solution for non-elite level sports.

I don't really see how sports and prisons are similar in any way. Voluntary physical contact in the sporting environment has very little to do with being locked up with someone intending to harm you with very little means to defend yourself.

 

[Emily's Cat]

And I'm entirely correct about relative risk. You are free to think whatever you like though, of course

You know what? If you want to make this claim, that you are the person doing "proper" risk analysis in this thread, I expect you to be able to provide your qualifications and training that give you such confidence.

I am a fully credentialed and qualified actuary who has been practicing for over twenty years. Risk analysis and evaluation is a cornerstone of my profession, and a skill I use daily. I have a masters degree in applied mathematics, with a minor in statistical analysis, all attained before I began my actuarial career, so I have an additional several years of risk-based study beyond my education.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

You know what? If you want to make this claim, that you are the person doing "proper" risk analysis in this thread, I expect you to be able to provide your qualifications and training that give you such confidence.

I am a fully credentialed and qualified actuary who has been practicing for over twenty years. Risk analysis and evaluation is a cornerstone of my profession, and a skill I use daily. I have a masters degree in applied mathematics, with a minor in statistical analysis, all attained before I began my actuarial career, so I have an additional several years of risk-based study beyond my education.

How many more vectors are you going to find to assert arguments from authority in which your opinion is unquestionable? Asking for a friend.

 

[Ziggurat]

I don't understand how I didn't answer your question. Trans women and cis women both have being women in common.

That doesn't mean anything when we don't have a common definition of what "woman" means.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Why would the danger that cis-women face from trans-women in women's prisons be an overriding concern compared to the danger that trans-women face from men in men's prisons? Shouldn't the goal be to minimize total incidents of violence, rather than protecting some classes of people while ignoring others?

Why is the default for it to be more acceptable that trans women (and men) face violence, including sexual violence, as a condition of their imprisonment?

Allow me to reframe this so that the answer might be more clear to you.

Why would the danger that females face from males in female prisons be an overriding concern compared to the danger that males face from males in male prisons?

As a parallel... Why would the danger that juveniles face from adults in juvenile prisons be an overriding concern compared to the danger that adults face from adults in adult prisons?

As a result of that more accurate reframing... Shouldn't the goal be to minimize total incidents of violence, rather than protecting some classes of people while ignoring by shifting the incidents of violence onto others?

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Allow me to reframe this so that the answer might be more clear to you.

Why would the danger that females face from males in female prisons be an overriding concern compared to the danger that males face from males in male prisons?

As a parallel... Why would the danger that juveniles face from adults in juvenile prisons be an overriding concern compared to the danger that adults face from adults in adult prisons?

As a result of that more accurate reframing... Shouldn't the goal be to minimize total incidents of violence, rather than protecting some classes of people while ignoring by shifting the incidents of violence onto others?

Here's a novel concept, everyone who is a victim of violence matters, even the ones you personally find icky.

There's no analysis that would find cis-women particularly vulnerable targets of violence that would not also find trans women similarly, if not more so, at risk.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Transwomen have more in common with women than men.

What do transwomen have in common with females that they do NOT have in common with males?

 

[Emily's Cat]

I concede, given that the majority of the population is heterosexual, that gender segregation almost certainly greatly reduces the amount of sexual violence that might otherwise occur.

Gender segregation does nothing of the sort. Sex segregation, however, does.

Please don't conflate sex and gender.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I don't understand how I didn't answer your question. Trans women and cis women both have being women in common.

Specifically what do they have in common that makes both females transgender identified males qualify as 'women'?

What are the characteristics of womanhood that females and transwomen have in common?

 

[theprestige]

There's no analysis that would find cis-women particularly vulnerable targets of violence that would not also find trans women similarly, if not more so, at risk.

Sure there is: Statistical analysis. Transwomen tend, statistically, to be larger and stronger than women. They also tend to be more physically violent than women.

 

[JoeMorgue]

"I have five fingers!"
"No you have four fingers and a thumb!"
"Every stop and count your fingers again!"
"I still got the same answer!"
"Well so did I!"

 

[Meadmaker]

Here's a novel concept, everyone who is a victim of violence matters, even the ones you personally find icky.

There's no analysis that would find cis-women particularly vulnerable targets of violence that would not also find trans women similarly, if not more so, at risk.

I agree with the first paragraph, but I think the second seems just plain wrong.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Sure there is: Statistical analysis. Transwomen tend, statistically, to be larger and stronger than women. They also tend to be more physically violent than women.

What do you make of the same statistical evidence that shows trans people are also very much so likely to face violence, including sexual violence, at levels comparable if not exceeding those of ciswomen?

 

[theprestige]

Gender segregation does nothing of the sort. Sex segregation, however, does.

Please don't conflate sex and gender.

Heh. I've stopped bothering with separate terms. I'm pretty sure we all know what we're talking about. At least, it's clear to me when ST means sex and when he means gender.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Is that true? I expected it to be true, but when I looked for evidence to confirm it, I didn't find any.

https://womanmeanssomething.com/targetstudy/

 

[theprestige]

What do you make of the same statistical evidence that shows trans people are also very much so likely to face violence, including sexual violence, at levels comparable if not exceeding those of ciswomen?

Back up a moment. Previously you said "particularly vulnerable". This is different from simply facing more violence.

Male football players face a lot of violence in their job. A female football player would be substantially more vulnerable than her male teammates, to the violence they'd face in a co-ed game.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I think the specific circumstances relating to sports are extremely complicated and a strict sex-based segregation is not a good solution, though I'm not sure there is an immediately evident solution for non-elite level sports.

I don't really see how sports and prisons are similar in any way. Voluntary physical contact in the sporting environment has very little to do with being locked up with someone intending to harm you with very little means to defend yourself.

I genuinely cannot make sense of your positions.

With respect to sports, you allow that sex-segregation as the basis, with the potential for some exceptions under well-defined criteria is appropriate. This is in the context of voluntary physical contact.

But with respect to prison, you seem to be of the opinion that sex-segregation should be eradicated in favor of gender-identity-segregation... with virtually no criteria for determining the legitimacy of that gender identity. This is in the context of involuntary physical contact.

You give less consideration to the safety of females when they are in more vulnerable spaces?

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Back up a moment. Previously you said "particularly vulnerable". This is different from simply facing more violence.

Male football players face a lot of violence in their job. A female football player would be substantially more vulnerable than her male teammates, to the violence they'd face in a co-ed game.

The proof is in the pudding. Trans people are being victimized at extremely high rates. Apparently whatever advantages you think they have don't amount to much.

is your argument that a ciswoman being raped is bad because it isn't a fair fight?

I would define these people as being vulnerable because their innate characteristics make them people that are sought out for violence, sexual or otherwise. Their ability to maybe punch it out with their would-be rapists doesn't strike me as very important.

 

[Emily's Cat]

There's no analysis that would find cis-women particularly vulnerable targets of violence that would not also find trans women similarly, if not more so, at risk.

Are you genuinely asserting that male-bodied, physically intact, pre-HRT, self-declared transwomen in a female prison are at *higher* risk as targets of violence than females in that same prison?

Are you, with a straight face, asserting that a male-sized, male-strengthed transwoman in a male prison is at a *higher* risk of violence than a female-sized, female-strengthed, female would be if placed in a male prison?