[ED] Discussion: Trans Women Are not Women (Part 6)

[Meadmaker]

Re: Risk assessment and housing transwomen (males) with females.

LondonJohn,

I think that everyone else has figured it out, but you seem rather invested in a particular outcome. From experience, I know that trying to talk someone out of that sort of belief is difficult or impossible. We won't be able to convince you, but perhaps you can convince yourself. I'll just point out one line of exploration if you want to pursue it.

Take the number of assaults in women's prisons committed by ciswomen, and the total number of ciswomen housed, and calculate the rate of assaults/ciswoman. Do the same for transwomen. Compare the numbers. I haven't made the calculation myself, but based on data you posted, I would assume that the number of assaults/transwoman would be higher, and indeed significantly higher. Several times higher, in fact. Contemplate the possible explanations for why that might be.

 

[Elaedith]

Unisex prisons sound like a bad idea in the most ideal of circumstances though. Large discrepancy in strength and individuals with nothing to lose. Transwomen being okay because there aren't enough of them to matter seems like a fallacy.

It parallels the 'argument' in the sports domain. It doesn't matter if transwomen have a significant athletic advantage because there are so few of them, so you are still more likely to lose a place to another female than to a transwoman.

 

[Meadmaker]

To be fair on the whole risk assessment thing, it ought to be the case that the risk is low, regardless of where a prisoner is held. If a given prisoner poses almost no risk, then it doesn't really matter if prisoners in one class pose three times the risk of prisoners in a different class. If both are still close to zero, it's not a big deal.


So, the question is, what risk is posed? I think we have some stats for that. I don't, but I think we have even seen some posted.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

It sounds to me, though, that Dutch prisons have less violence than American prisons, so we should look to see what the Dutch are doing differently. If we did, maybe the trans issues would go away.

Eta:. Unfortunately, that doesn't actually solve the question of where to put transwoman prisoners. The problem is made more complicated by the shameful conditions in some nations' prisons, but that still leaves the question about where to put a specific criminal. As with almost every other issue that comes up in this thread, I think the issue begins with biology, and that's what should drive the solution. That means my defaultbposition is that biological males go to men's prisons.

Why would the danger that cis-women face from trans-women in women's prisons be an overriding concern compared to the danger that trans-women face from men in men's prisons? Shouldn't the goal be to minimize total incidents of violence, rather than protecting some classes of people while ignoring others?

Why is the default for it to be more acceptable that trans women (and men) face violence, including sexual violence, as a condition of their imprisonment?

 

[Meadmaker]

Why would the danger that cis-women face from trans-women in women's prisons be an overriding concern compared to the danger that trans-women face from men in men's prisons? Shouldn't the goal be to minimize total incidents of violence, rather than protecting some classes of people while ignoring others?

Why is the default for it to be more acceptable that trans women (and men) face violence, including sexual violence, as a condition of their imprisonment?

There are two issues involved. One is safety. I agree that the safety of everyone is important, and if the transwoman is at increased risk in a male prison, that is an argument to be considered. If housing a transwoman in a female facility protects their safety, without compromising the safety of the other inmates, then that should be an option.

I've never run a prison, nor spent any time in one of them, so I can't claim significant comprehension of issues such as who is safer where, and why they can't all be safe everywhere. I would just say that the default position starts with biology, but if there is reason to believe that safety issues should override that default, then so be it.

The other issue is privacy. Again, I've never even been inside the walls of a prison, so I can't claim any real understanding. My attitude toward privacy in a prison setting would be the same as my attitude in a normal locker room. Females should not be required to take their clothes off in the presence of males, and that is a biological issue. I don't know exactly how that works out in a prison setting.

What it comes down to is that prisoners do not have a right to be treated the way they would like to be treated. Issues of safety and the concern for all inmates have to be considered. I am unqualified to make an actual judgement on the policy. I can just say that I start with biology as the default position, but I would be open to reviewing arguments and the data that supports those arguments in favor of ignoring biology, if it seems to serve everyone's interest, or at least result in a reasonable compromise.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

There are two issues involved. One is safety. I agree that the safety of everyone is important, and if the transwoman is at increased risk in a male prison, that is an argument to be considered. If housing a transwoman in a female facility protects their safety, without compromising the safety of the other inmates, then that should be an option.

I've never run a prison, nor spent any time in one of them, so I can't claim significant comprehension of issues such as who is safer where, and why they can't all be safe everywhere. I would just say that the default position starts with biology, but if there is reason to believe that safety issues should override that default, then so be it.

The other issue is privacy. Again, I've never even been inside the walls of a prison, so I can't claim any real understanding. My attitude toward privacy in a prison setting would be the same as my attitude in a normal locker room. Females should not be required to take their clothes off in the presence of males, and that is a biological issue. I don't know exactly how that works out in a prison setting.

What it comes down to is that prisoners do not have a right to be treated the way they would like to be treated. Issues of safety and the concern for all inmates have to be considered. I am unqualified to make an actual judgement on the policy. I can just say that I start with biology as the default position, but I would be open to reviewing arguments and the data that supports those arguments in favor of ignoring biology, if it seems to serve everyone's interest, or at least result in a reasonable compromise.

Sexual violence is only one facet of the unchecked violence that is tolerated, if not encouraged, in US prisons.

I don't see any way to polish this turd. US prisons are too overcrowded, understaffed, and underfunded to even come close to guaranteeing any basic safety to their inmates, sexual or otherwise. Much of this is by design and the unavoidable consequence of our insatiable thirst to incarcerate our population.

 

[theprestige]

Sexual violence is only one facet of the unchecked violence that is tolerated, if not encouraged, in US prisons.

I don't see any way to polish this turd. US prisons are too overcrowded, understaffed, and underfunded to even come close to guaranteeing any basic safety to their inmates, sexual or otherwise. Much of this is by design and the unavoidable consequence of our insatiable thirst to incarcerate our population.

Given this context, what's your argument for why transwomen should be housed in women's prisons?

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Given this context, what's your argument for why transwomen should be housed in women's prisons?

Transwomen have more in common with women than men.

 

[Ziggurat]

Transwomen have more in common with women than men.

How do you even measure that? And again, you're treating them as a monolithic group, and they aren't.

 

[theprestige]

Transwomen have more in common with women than men.

What specific characteristics do they have in common with women which you think mean they should be housed in women's prisons?

In the context of sex segregation, which is what we're talking about here, transwomen have literally nothing in common with women that they don't also have in common with men. Is there something I'm missing?

 

[TurkeysGhost]

What specific characteristics do they have in common with women which you think mean they should be housed in women's prisons?

In the context of sex segregation, which is what we're talking about here, transwomen have literally nothing in common with women that they don't also have in common with men. Is there something I'm missing?

Whether or not these facilities should be segregated by sex or gender is very much an open question. Most of these policies were decided when there was no recognition of transgender people.

I am not convinced that gender segregation is, in itself, adequate to ensure the safety of inmates from sexual violence from other inmates. I concede, given that the majority of the population is heterosexual, that gender segregation almost certainly greatly reduces the amount of sexual violence that might otherwise occur.

 

[theprestige]

Whether or not these facilities should be segregated by sex or gender is very much an open question. Most of these policies were decided when there was no recognition of transgender people.

I am not convinced that gender segregation is, in itself, adequate to ensure the safety of inmates from sexual violence from other inmates. I concede, given that the majority of the population is heterosexual, that gender segregation almost certainly greatly reduces the amount of sexual violence that might otherwise occur.

I already get all this. We've been over this many times already. I'm asking for you to add new information. Please just answer the question I asked.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

I already get all this. We've been over this many times already. I'm asking for you to add new information. Please just answer the question I asked.

I don't understand how I didn't answer your question. Trans women and cis women both have being women in common.

Edit: Seeing your later comment, it seems obvious to me that the intended goal of gender segregation is to protect women from a heightened risk of sexual violence. Seeing as both transwomen and ciswomen share in this heightened risk, it makes sense to treat them similarly.

 

[theprestige]

I don't understand how I didn't answer your question. Trans women and cis women both have being women in common.

Edit: Seeing your later comment, it seems obvious to me that the intended goal of gender segregation is to protect women from a heightened risk of sexual violence. Seeing as both transwomen and ciswomen share in this heightened risk, it makes sense to treat them similarly.

Heightened risk from violence of all kinds. Are you denying that the good sex-based reasons for segregating men's and women's sports do not apply to men's and women's prisons?

 

[Emily's Cat]

Gender identity clinic whistleblower wins damages for ‘vilification’.

An employment tribunal has awarded Sonia Appleby £20,000 in damages for vilification and reputational damage after she raised concerns about child safeguarding in the gender identity development service.

Sonia Appleby is still child safeguarding lead for the Tavistock and Portman Trust. It takes guts to sue your employers while still working for them.

Appleby made protected disclosures, "including about “challenges” at GIDS with what she described as “rogue medics and the political expectations of the national service”, as well as splits within the team".

Also giving evidence in this case were some of the 35 clinicians who have resigned from the Trust in the past few years.

Good! More evidence that reason is coming back.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Unless the trust's physician population numbers in the tens of thousands, 35 resignations who are also willing to testify seems like a lot for a healthy, well-managed organization.

IIRC, that was a material portion of the physicians.

 

[Emily's Cat]

They're both valid and applicable to all the above.

I'm not sure you've been reading much of what I've been writing. Because, in a nutshell, my overarching opinion is this:

If the granting of rights (notably access rights) to transwomen (I'm guessing you have no problem with things like transmen gaining access to men's facilities, since you never mention it...) results in increased risk of physical/mental harm to ciswomen, and it proves impossible to mitigate/offset that risk to a statistically-insignificant level....

.... then - and only then - should action be taken to partially or wholly revoke transwomen's rights in that situation.






The problem is - you're starting with the near-unequivocal hypothesis that there will necessarily be a conflict between transwomen's rights and ciswomen's rights in certain areas. I reject your hypothesis, because 1) I believe it's possible in every area to take sufficient steps to mitigate the risk to ciswomen, and 2) I'll only change my mind if I see empirical evidence in any given area which tends to support your hypothesis. In other words, if real-world data shows either a zero or very small increase in risk to ciswomen, I think society should accept that. But anything worse than that, and it would be clear to me that transgender access policy should change significantly (in that particular area, of course).

• The incident rate of sexual assaults on females by males increased materially in unisex bathrooms
• The rate of complaint regarding voyeurism, predatory behavior, and inappropriate behavior by males in the female bathroom of Target increased materially since Target instituted their trans-friendly policy
• Several females in prisons throughout Canada, the UK, and a few states in the US have been sexually assaulted or raped by transgender identified males

How much evidence do you need? How much additional risk and danger to females is allowable in your eyes?

And most importantly, what rights for transgender identified people are under discussion?

 

[Olmstead]

Whether or not these facilities should be segregated by sex or gender is very much an open question. Most of these policies were decided when there was no recognition of transgender people.

I am not convinced that gender segregation is, in itself, adequate to ensure the safety of inmates from sexual violence from other inmates. I concede, given that the majority of the population is heterosexual, that gender segregation almost certainly greatly reduces the amount of sexual violence that might otherwise occur.

[bolding mine]

I think everyone in this thread is on board with a segregation based on genitals (including post-op) in every case other than sports.

I get that this might not satisfy your division of heterosexual vs. homosexual, but the idea that this division should be based on inner perception and not actual sexual characteristics is ... interesting?

 

[Emily's Cat]

Then I question your competence in this area as well.

You do maths poorly and with little understanding of how to evaluate the marginal impact of risk... and then you proceed to simply testiculate that two females who do risk evaluation as part of their professional careers have "questionable competence"?

Seriously, how dare you impugn my professionality and competence in my own area of expertise, because you somehow believe that your back-of-the-envelope half-assed "logic" for something that you are NOT qualified to assess disagrees?

I find it laughable and sad that you feel you can mansplain an evaluation of risk - a field in which you have zero claim to authority - to two people who DO have an element of authority.

 

[Meadmaker]

• 
  The rate of complaint regarding voyeurism, predatory behavior, and inappropriate behavior by males in the female bathroom of Target increased materially since Target instituted their trans-friendly policy

• 
  
  Is that true? I expected it to be true, but when I looked for evidence to confirm it, I didn't find any.