Pandemic Panic Must Stop

[cullennz]

The other tiny thing as I think is a bit rare, is what happens to those who for medical reasons can't have the vaccine.

Are they just not allowed to work again?

 

[Nosi]

I have to disagree. No employer or Government should be able to demand that you undergo a medical procedure that you don't want to, and nor should you be able to be fired for not doing so. The potential for abuse is too much. What happens when Employers decide to demand women abort their pregnancies or lose their jobs? Now yes, that is an extreme case and reductio ad absurdum, but without the legal protections, it could also be plausible.

Having said that I am for vaccines, I got mine pretty much as soon as Group 2 was eligible to get them. I'm one of those "young" people that were "jumping the queue". I also recommend that everyone that can get one does so because it's the best way to get rid of the SAR-CoV-2 virus permanently.

However, hard cases make for bad laws and changing our laws to remove people's protection against employers and Governments forcing medical procedures onto people, that's a bad law regardless of the good intentions. As they say, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Unlike pregnancy, an unvaccinated idiot infecting the office with Covid 19 can take out the entire office.

 

[crescent]

The other tiny thing as I think is a bit rare, is what happens to those who for medical reasons can't have the vaccine.

Are they just not allowed to work again?

What happens to those people already?

The wheel is not being reinvented. The covid vaccine will be added to the list of other required vaccines, like measles.

My impression is that such people still have jobs and work and such, although some may be required to take extra precautions, like wearing masks, when other coworkers may not be required to adhere to such requirements. Why would covid be any different?

The other issue is that people are now making up excuses to have medical issues preventing vaccination. A Doctor in Florida is being prosecuted for selling medical vaccine(fixed) mask exemptions to anyone willing to pay him $50. I expect other people will try to do similar things for vaccine requirements, there is already a thriving black market in counterfeit vaccine record cards

 

[deadrose]

So far, 4 of my extended family have contracted Covid in congregate care settings - the medical staff in those places seem to be prone to anti-vax propaganda.

It's interesting to see who's refusing vaccination wholesale though - police seem to be a large number, and also refuse to wear masks, and it looks like fire dept members are following suit. In our state, the governor has mandated vaccination for those groups, and today there was an article in the Seattle Times about the Vashon Fire chief, who publicly announced he wouldn't be vaccinated even if it cost him his job. This is a position that requires EMT training and constant contact with the public.

Interestingly, after all the years Vashon has been held up as the national poster child for antivaxxers, they have an 84% fully vaxxed rate, and another 7% have had one shot. That leaves the fire chief in pretty thin company.

Seems to me that the only people panicking are the refusers.

 

[PhantomWolf]

Unlike pregnancy, an unvaccinated idiot infecting the office with Covid 19 can take out the entire office.

Well, they do say never get between a pregnant lady and a toilet, but the point wasn't that it was dangerous, it was that it's not in a business's interests to have pregnant employees, especially with 12 months of parental leave of while 6-months is paid. It would be financially beneficial to force employees to terminate if the employer could dictate health decisions.

On the other side of this coin, we see US Employers having control over employees' ability to have birth control through the Health Insurance that they provide. This is just as outrageous. Employers should not be able to demand employees undertake medical procedures, or prevent them from doing so, period, regardless of what those are.

Now, as I noted elsewhere, when it comes to vaccinations, these can be a health and safety issue, and employees can be moved out of high-risk positions, and even terminated if there are no places to put them into that are not high risk. They can be forced to undertake the use of PPE and other precautions that vaccinated colleagues don't. Employers can also not renew contracts and only hire those that are vaccinated. All these things certainly give incentives to get vaccinated, but an Employer should bever be able to force an employee to get a vaccine if they don't want it.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

So crickets to this post, cullennz?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=13581357#post13581357

 

[The Atheist]

0, and I don't see panicked responses.

Go to a supermarket.

All types of meat, flour, all types of pre-packaged food, bread, and even things like muesli, are in very short supply, and the sole reason is panic buying.

I think there were more bare shelves than not at the supermarket, and that was at the start of the day. By late afternoon, there will be nothing worth buying.

Idiotic.

We live in a country where we have a billion sheep and you can't buy lamb.

The same way we have gotten rid of Smallpox, and are near to ridding the planet of the likes of measles, polio, rubella, and mumps.

You are dreaming, and expert opinion agrees with me on this - we will not eradicate Covid and it will become an endemic disease.

https://www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n494

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/features/what-will-it-be-like-when-covid-19-becomes-endemic/

And if you think measles is nearly eradicated, maybe go talk to parents of the 60 kids who died in Samoa just two years ago.

Totally agree, but it is one of those things I switch to a bit of a lefty over

You signed up for for what you signed up for and unless the govt make the vaccine compulsary then while annoying, you just have to work around weirdo ani=vaxxers.

Tell them their role now includes cleaning the cars in the car park all day etc. Just have to sork with job role and annoy the crap out of them till they do it.

You're forgetting one important point - H&S legislation.

There's the opportunity for employers to insist on vaccines to protect other staff, and H&S trumps the Employment Relations Act.

 

[cullennz]

So crickets to this post, cullennz?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=13581357#post13581357

Well yes, because has been pointed out already they need to try to re-position them out of need for it.

 

[cullennz]

You're forgetting one important point - H&S legislation.

There's the opportunity for employers to insist on vaccines to protect other staff, and H&S trumps the Employment Relations Act.

Fair point, but they better prove they can't adjust to suit if an employee wants to sue for unlawful dismissal

 

[cullennz]

Sorry. claim

 

[ZiprHead]

How many kids are in ICUs? If there are 1900 kids in USA with Covid, I'm picking the number is going to be very, very small.

Where are you getting this 1900 figure from?

According to this published just a few days ago: https://www.aap.org/en/pages/2019-novel-coronavirus-covid-19-infections/children-and-covid-19-state-level-data-report/

As of August 19, over 4.59 million children have tested positive for COVID-19 since the onset of the pandemic. Over 180,000 cases were added the past week, reaching levels of the previous winter surge of 2020-21. After declining in early summer, child cases have increased exponentially, with over a four-fold increase the past month, rising from about 38,000 cases the week ending July 22nd to 180,000 the past week.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Well yes, because has been pointed out already they need to try to re-position them out of need for it.

They lost the bloody court case, the law you cited was a fail.

So what is this crap? The employers are trying to compromise ergo what?

The court case about human rights you've been spouting for 3 pages now has been overruled by the NZ courts.
It so happens my knowledge of public health and common sense was correct.

 

[angrysoba]

The other tiny thing as I think is a bit rare, is what happens to those who for medical reasons can't have the vaccine.

Are they just not allowed to work again?

Oh Jesus!

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Fair point, but they better prove they can't adjust to suit if an employee wants to sue for unlawful dismissal

THEY JUST LOST IN A NZ COURT. How does a worker have a case for unlawful dismissal?

BTW, read the ruling: not every employee can be accommodated.

We note that some people may not be able to work in some positions because they do not wish to be vaccinated. Some people may even have had to leave a job due to this. We appreciate that this could be a difficult experience, and we encourage employers and employees to approach such a situation in an open and reasonable way. However, we are told that there are some situations in which it is accepted that limitations on people’s freedoms are required. We consider that, given the risks to the health and safety of the wider population during the COVID-19 pandemic, such limitations may be appropriate.

Dodging the facts in this case doesn't support your position about worker's rights.

 

[angrysoba]

That varies wildly by location.

The hospital profiled by the NYTimes in their interviews in the Ozarks, Arkansas had a hospital with only about 50% vax rate among staff. There is no shortage of anti-vax and other conspiracy cranks in the US medical system.

Indeed. Some of them get invited to talks at the Senate.

Hell, some of them are even elected members of the Senate.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Where are you getting this 1900 figure from?

According to this published just a few days ago: https://www.aap.org/en/pages/2019-novel-coronavirus-covid-19-infections/children-and-covid-19-state-level-data-report/

Somewhere upthread it was in a cite about the number of kids hospitalized with COVID.

CNBC: The number of children hospitalized with Covid-19 in the United States hit a record high of just over 1,900 on Saturday.

That was 2 weeks ago and the number is no doubt higher now.

 

[smartcooky]

Well, they do say never get between a pregnant lady and a toilet, but the point wasn't that it was dangerous, it was that it's not in a business's interests to have pregnant employees, especially with 12 months of parental leave of while 6-months is paid. It would be financially beneficial to force employees to terminate if the employer could dictate health decisions.

On the other side of this coin, we see US Employers having control over employees' ability to have birth control through the Health Insurance that they provide. This is just as outrageous. Employers should not be able to demand employees undertake medical procedures, or prevent them from doing so, period, regardless of what those are.

Now, as I noted elsewhere, when it comes to vaccinations, these can be a health and safety issue, and employees can be moved out of high-risk positions, and even terminated if there are no places to put them into that are not high risk. They can be forced to undertake the use of PPE and other precautions that vaccinated colleagues don't. Employers can also not renew contracts and only hire those that are vaccinated. All these things certainly give incentives to get vaccinated, but an Employer should bever be able to force an employee to get a vaccine if they don't want it.

This

While forcing a person to reveal their vaccination status is a violation of that person's right to medical confidentiality, the employer can get around that by asking an applicant it they are vaccinated or not (asking is not a violation). The applicant has the right to decline to answer, and if they do decline, the employer has the right to draw a line through their name. Unlike being black or brown, or LGBTQ+, being "unvaccinated" is not a protected group.

 

[PhantomWolf]

Go to a supermarket.

All types of meat, flour, all types of pre-packaged food, bread, and even things like muesli, are in very short supply, and the sole reason is panic buying.

I think there were more bare shelves than not at the supermarket, and that was at the start of the day. By late afternoon, there will be nothing worth buying.

Idiotic.

We live in a country where we have a billion sheep and you can't buy lamb.

First off, it depends where you are, the only thing I couldn't get when I went shopping yesterday was the exact frozen pizza and specific bread I wanted, and that happens even outside of level 4 lockdown. I ended up getting a different pizza and while I could have gotten a very similar bread or any of the other types, I decided that I need to cut down on my bread consumption anyway.

My issue with buying lamb is the price, not the availability.

Now yes, some idiots are going stupid and bulk buying, just as they did last time, and the time before that. Idiots are going to Idiot, but that's not a sign that everyone is panicking, it's just a sign that we have idiots here too, which we have known for a long time.

You are dreaming, and expert opinion agrees with me on this - we will not eradicate Covid and it will become an endemic disease.

You are mixing up whether something can be done with will it be done.

It is entirely possible to eradicate the SARS-CoV-2 virus, but to do it would take political will and population acceptance of the measures that simply don't exist at this point in time, entirely for political reasons.

That's the thing. Covid will become endemic, not because we can't do anything to stop it, but because our politicians won't do what is required to prevent it and because their actions have convinced a massive portion of the population not only to not do it, but to be extremely hostile towards any measure and vocally anti-doing taking those measures.

Because they see it as politically expedient, and bad for their opponents, those that could have led us out of the pandemic have thrown their hands in the air and surrendered to the virus. Again I am going to point out, you live in a country that had proven this, and next to another country that has proven it. In fact, there are numerous countries in the world that successfully vanquished the virus only to get reinfected because other countries refused to follow suit and respread not just the original, but new variants that their inactions allowed to mutate.

And if you think measles is nearly eradicated, maybe go talk to parents of the 60 kids who died in Samoa just two years ago.

The fact that you need to pull out a few dozen deaths in a 3rd world pacific island nation should tell you something.

in 2019 there were 140,000 deaths from measles. In 1980 that number was 2.6 million.

Today the majority of cases left are in poor Asian and African nations where vaccination rates are low. Outbreaks in western countries are rare and when they do occur, they do so primarily in Anti-Vaxxer communities.

A number of countries including the UK, US, and Brazil were declared measles-free in 2016. However Anti-Vaxxer activity has seen a number of them lose it again because of outbreaks among unvaccinated kids.

Yes we still need to do more work to eliminate, but if people would do the right thing and get their kids vaccinated, we could win it, and we could defeat and eliminate Covid as well, especially if those in charge stopped leading the idiot anti-vaccine charge.

If you really want me to I can explain to you in small words exactly how to rid the planet of SAR-CoV-2 over the course of 6 months, but I also know that because of politics and idiot politicians and "my rights" morons, it's never going to happen.

 

[cullennz]

THEY JUST LOST IN A NZ COURT. How does a worker have a case for unlawful dismissal?

BTW, read the ruling: not every employee can be accommodated.


Dodging the facts in this case doesn't support your position about worker's rights.

Has any one ever mentioned you come across as an angry dude bro'

Tone it down mate, easier on the heart and that.

 

[PhantomWolf]

Has any one ever mentioned you come across as an angry dude bro'

Tone it down mate, easier on the heart and that.

You do realize that Ginger is neither a Dude nor a Bro? right?